irenesbob

I was pleased to see Audi will put an 8-speed Tiptronic in the new S4 instead of a DSG. I have long felt the 8-speed Tip is a wonderful transmission that unfairly gets a bad rap by many as a “slush box". The few DSG's I have been in and driven seem odd to me - jerky and non-linear, if that makes sense. I like the smooth seamless acceleration of the Tip, especially when hooked to a high HP engine like it will be in the S4. Now all the Japanese manufacturers that have switched to DSG's can start going back to torque converter automatics I guess lol

NoahWeb

I respect your opinion, but entirely disagree with it. DSG > TQ based Auto

They are more efficient at transferring power from the crank to the wheels leading to better fuel mileage, no loss/drop of torque between gear changes, can move up/down multiple gears rather than sequentially only, and faster up/down shifts (8ms/600ms avg).

Now...if a DSG could hold up to the TDI's torque...and AoA sold Avants.... A6 Avant TDI w/ DSG. Winning.

irenesbob

That's OK, I don't dispute your comments at all. I suspect you're a far more performance oriented driver than I am at this point in my life so it makes since that our comfort vs. performance preferences differ. That being said, I do believe the 8-speed Tip is far from the "slush box" some (not you) label it.
Do you have any idea why Audi moved away from a DSG with the new S4? I would have thought they'd stick with the Tip for more comfy-type cars like the A4, A6, A8, Q5 & Q7, but use the DSG in the performance models. A buddy told me the DSG/S-tronic transmissions are costing Audi a lot more money than anticipated in terms of the warranty work they require. Could this be so, and if so contribute to the switch to the Tiptronic? Just to open a can of worms he also told me that DSG's are better for transverse engine cars like the TT and A3, but not so much in a longitudinally oriented drivetrain like the A4/S4 has. Doesn’t really matter to me since I am going for another A6 with Tiptronic pretty soon.

Fahrer

If you look at the 0-60 time for the 2016 Audi A6 2.0, you may get your answer. The Quattro, although heavier, is significantly quicker than the front drive with DSG. One reason is that the torque converter enables the turbo to spool up sooner. In addition the extra gears don't hurt. The new S4 is turbocharged, not supercharged.

2017 Audi S4 Photos and Info ? News ? Car and Driver

Fahrer

The 2016 Acura ILX has a dual clutch transmission with a torque converter.

2016 Acura ILX First Drive ? Review ? Car and Driver

irenesbob

I saw that as well.The press release from Acura says: "The torque converter provides exceptionally smooth operation in stop-and-go situations, plus it offers off-the-line torque multiplication for substantially improved initial acceleration that a DCT alone cannot equal."
I wonder if Audi and others will follow suit.
In terms of the A6 2.0 acceleration advantage of the quattro Tiptronic over the DSG fwd some of it I think is related to the better off the line traction (less wheel spin) inherent with quattro.

superswiss

It very much depends on your preference. The DSG is a shift-by-wire manual transmission. That's exactly what you'll find if you open one up. It is at its best if driven in manual mode and the driver decides when to shift and what gear to be in. The fully automatic mode of a DSG is there for convenience and meant for the times where you don't care about shifting yourself. The tiptronic on the other hand is meant to be driven in automatic mode most of the time, where it is smooth and optimized. The manual mode is rubbery and mushy.

The exact reasons why Audi went with the tiptronic in the new S4 are not known. They claim it's due to the current DSG not being able to handle the torque of the new engine, however, it's doing just fine in the S6/7 and folks even chip these cars making significantly more torque than the new stock S4 engine.

The reality is most people buy a DSG car not knowing what it really is and then drive around in D all day and complain that their automatic transmission is jerky. A DSG takes skilled right foot coordination to drive it smoothly just like it takes skilled left and right foot coordination to drive a manual transmission smoothly.

irenesbob

I believe the 7-speed S tronic used in the S6 and other bigger Audi’s (MLB2 platform models) is different in several ways (beefier) from the 6-speed S tronic used in the TT, TTS, A3, S3 (MQB platform models). My initial thought was that Audi may have planned to use the 6-speed S tronic in the B9 A4 as a cost saving measure, but it didn’t work out well because the development work on the 6-speed S tronic was all about making it work in transverse engine MQB models and the B9 A4 (MLB2 based) has a longitudinally positioned engine, so they went with the Tip since it is likely cheaper than the 7–speed S tronic in the higher price point S6/ S7. Perhaps we will never know, but it is interesting given that enthusiasts probably see the Tiptronic as a step backward.

superswiss

The 6-speed DSG used in transverse platform cars is fundamentally different from the 7-speed used in the longitudinal platform cars. The former is a VW developed transmission and is used in various VW models as well as anything Audi less than the A4. There is also a 7-speed transverse DSG used in VW models and the upcoming Audi RS3. The longitudinal 7-speed DSG was developed by Audi for Audi and is exclusively used in anything from the A4 to the S7. For example it has two separate oil circuits to avoid the issues that led to the massive VW DSG recall and it uses wet clutches. I'm not sure if the current 6-speed transverse DSG is still using dry clutches or if they've switched in later versions. While anything from the A4 to the S7 uses the same basic transmission, there are difference at the software and/or hardware level. For example the version in the RS4/5 has upgraded hydraulics to make it faster than what's in the other models. The RS implementation also has quite a bit of a different programming, for example it has a true manual mode, meaning it never upshifts automatically in manual mode, where as the A/S implementations all upshift in manual mode. The version in the RS is more track/performance oriented. It's never been confirmed what the difference other than programming are in the S6/7 version. Lastly, the R8 uses an all new 7-speed S-tronic specifically developed for the R8 and the Lambo Huracan.

The point is that Audi could have either beefed up the longitudinal 7-speed DSG for the all new S4 if the torque of the new engine is really an issue, or developed an all new DSG. It is possible that transmission development is simply lagging behind. There were rumors of a new 9-speed DSG for better fuel economy.

I think besides customers complaining that the DSG is jerky, a big driver behind the move to going to a 8-speed tiptronic is fuel economy. We might see an all new DSG being introduced with the new RS4/5 and maybe it will then get incorporated into the mid cycle refresh of the S4.

irenesbob

superswiss-

Great information - thanks.

Off topic question: The new Bentley SUV I've been seeing online looks to me a lot like the new Q7 in terms of proportions and overall shape, especially the rear portion. Are the two related?