New to Me 05 A6.....Intro and progress
10-08-2014, 10:50 AM
#12
Not good. Been working on it. Rotating the motor around by hand, and the drivers side cams were skipping just rolling it over by hand. Got them around, locked down, phasers removed, and passenger side was off. Dropped a rod down into #1 and when I lined up the cams, the rod had dropped probably 1" into the head. So passenger side was out too. I don't have high hopes at this point for it being a quick clean fix. Gotta get the crank locked before I try to bust the cam phasers free on the passenger side.
10-08-2014, 12:56 PM
#13
Both tensioners out, cams locked, Crank is as close to TDC as I can make it using the rod down the spark plug hole "technique", lol.
Drivers side tensioner was completely trashed. Piston completely sunk in bore, no tension at all, guides torn up or missing (fished one from down low).
Passenger side tensioner was in good shape, but strangely, passenger side seems to be the side that was off also. Both cams were about 1/8 turn or so off from the front piston on the passenger side being at TDC.
I'm hesitant to go further. I'd need to put the new tensioners in and line everything up in order to compression test, but that runs the risk of having to recompress and potentially trash the new tensioners if I end up doing a pull. I didn't do a compression test prior simply for the fact that I didn't want to potentially bend valves in the first place.
The good news, or bad news possibly, is that when I was rotating the motor over by hand, I was not getting any resistant spots. I guess I'm still hoping it was close enough to being in time that nothing it. Looking back at the previous pictures, the way the cams are sitting, if I'd have simply backed up the motor about 1/4 of a turn, I'd have gotten the cams all lined up together very potentially in time. BUT, that would have been contingent of IF tension was maintained on the chains which it wasn't.
Will get some pics up shortly.
I guess what I'm going to shoot for at this point is grabbing a long 6mm allen socket, and pinning the crank at TDC, then go back together as-is for a compression test and take my chances on the tensioners. If the compression test comes back bad, then I'll probably just yank the motor and go through it.
For those of you who HAVE replaced valves on these, did you end up having to have new guides pressed in or were they within tolerances?
Drivers side tensioner was completely trashed. Piston completely sunk in bore, no tension at all, guides torn up or missing (fished one from down low).
Passenger side tensioner was in good shape, but strangely, passenger side seems to be the side that was off also. Both cams were about 1/8 turn or so off from the front piston on the passenger side being at TDC.
I'm hesitant to go further. I'd need to put the new tensioners in and line everything up in order to compression test, but that runs the risk of having to recompress and potentially trash the new tensioners if I end up doing a pull. I didn't do a compression test prior simply for the fact that I didn't want to potentially bend valves in the first place.
The good news, or bad news possibly, is that when I was rotating the motor over by hand, I was not getting any resistant spots. I guess I'm still hoping it was close enough to being in time that nothing it. Looking back at the previous pictures, the way the cams are sitting, if I'd have simply backed up the motor about 1/4 of a turn, I'd have gotten the cams all lined up together very potentially in time. BUT, that would have been contingent of IF tension was maintained on the chains which it wasn't.
Will get some pics up shortly.
I guess what I'm going to shoot for at this point is grabbing a long 6mm allen socket, and pinning the crank at TDC, then go back together as-is for a compression test and take my chances on the tensioners. If the compression test comes back bad, then I'll probably just yank the motor and go through it.
For those of you who HAVE replaced valves on these, did you end up having to have new guides pressed in or were they within tolerances?
10-08-2014, 03:53 PM
#14
Ok, here's pics:
Passenger side cams locked.
I had to use the tool to hold the phasers to keep the crank from turning. Worked well.
Drivers side cams locked. These were in time by what the rod in #1 was telling me:
Back of Passenger head.
Back of driver head:
Lots of room to work with, that's for sure.
Here's the tensioners:
Passenger on top obviously. The drivers side one the piston is COMPLETELY compressed and not coming out.
Now what's got me REALLY perplexed. Looking at the intake cam for the passenger side head, you can't see the lobes, I.E. it doesn't look like the rockers are on the base circle of the cam. Yet, this is supposed to be the TDC servicing position for the cams. I find this odd considering #1 is supposed to be at TDC yet it looks like the #1 intake valves are very close to if not open to a degree.
Passenger side cams locked.
I had to use the tool to hold the phasers to keep the crank from turning. Worked well.
Drivers side cams locked. These were in time by what the rod in #1 was telling me:
Back of Passenger head.
Back of driver head:
Lots of room to work with, that's for sure.
Here's the tensioners:
Passenger on top obviously. The drivers side one the piston is COMPLETELY compressed and not coming out.
Now what's got me REALLY perplexed. Looking at the intake cam for the passenger side head, you can't see the lobes, I.E. it doesn't look like the rockers are on the base circle of the cam. Yet, this is supposed to be the TDC servicing position for the cams. I find this odd considering #1 is supposed to be at TDC yet it looks like the #1 intake valves are very close to if not open to a degree.
Last edited by Fastbird; 10-08-2014 at 03:55 PM.
10-08-2014, 04:04 PM
#15
Now here's where I'm struggling. Going back to the following two pics below, you'll see the Passenger side head (top) and drivers side head (bottom) right after I got the car home and the valve covers off.
Looking at the relative position of the screw holes for the cams, would you guys agree that the cams themselves were in time together? To me it looks like if I backed the motor up just a bit, the four cams would have been able to be locked in with the tools without any adjusting. But once I rotated the motor around by hand they got out of whack ALTHOUGH, no resistance was met moving around by hand. So I'm left wondering if A, due to the nature of how the crank pulls on the chain from the bottom for the drivers side, if things remained in time and just got out while cranking by hand, or B, if it already bent valves and hence, I was met with no resistance.
Still doesn't explain why the Passenger side cams were BEHIND the crank in reference to #1 TDC though. I rolled the cams to upright by hand and watched the rod drop into the #1 spark plug well as I did. Backed them out about 1/5 of a turn or so and the rod came back to TDC (Drivers side chain/tensioner/phasers were already apart at this point).
Looking at the relative position of the screw holes for the cams, would you guys agree that the cams themselves were in time together? To me it looks like if I backed the motor up just a bit, the four cams would have been able to be locked in with the tools without any adjusting. But once I rotated the motor around by hand they got out of whack ALTHOUGH, no resistance was met moving around by hand. So I'm left wondering if A, due to the nature of how the crank pulls on the chain from the bottom for the drivers side, if things remained in time and just got out while cranking by hand, or B, if it already bent valves and hence, I was met with no resistance.
Still doesn't explain why the Passenger side cams were BEHIND the crank in reference to #1 TDC though. I rolled the cams to upright by hand and watched the rod drop into the #1 spark plug well as I did. Backed them out about 1/5 of a turn or so and the rod came back to TDC (Drivers side chain/tensioner/phasers were already apart at this point).
10-08-2014, 05:38 PM
#16
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not sure I can offer a lot at this point, but....
...thanks for the photo essay. great stuff.
yeah that driver's side tensioner is trash. will be interesting to do some forensics on it if you can.
couldn't you check for bent valves by doing a compressed air leakdown?
might cause the crank to move....
my gut says you haven't bent anything but take that as pure speculation.
Have you seen this service trainer? has a section on the 3.2 fsi.
not sure there's any golden nuggets, but might help?
yeah that driver's side tensioner is trash. will be interesting to do some forensics on it if you can.
couldn't you check for bent valves by doing a compressed air leakdown?
might cause the crank to move....
my gut says you haven't bent anything but take that as pure speculation.
Have you seen this service trainer? has a section on the 3.2 fsi.
not sure there's any golden nuggets, but might help?
10-08-2014, 05:54 PM
#17
...thanks for the photo essay. great stuff.
yeah that driver's side tensioner is trash. will be interesting to do some forensics on it if you can.
couldn't you check for bent valves by doing a compressed air leakdown?
might cause the crank to move....
my gut says you haven't bent anything but take that as pure speculation.
Have you seen this service trainer? has a section on the 3.2 fsi.
not sure there's any golden nuggets, but might help?
yeah that driver's side tensioner is trash. will be interesting to do some forensics on it if you can.
couldn't you check for bent valves by doing a compressed air leakdown?
might cause the crank to move....
my gut says you haven't bent anything but take that as pure speculation.
Have you seen this service trainer? has a section on the 3.2 fsi.
not sure there's any golden nuggets, but might help?
I'm really confused as to why the cams on the passenger side were retarded in relation to the #1 piston at TDC. That side seemed fine. *Edit* UNLESS.......the cam phasers retarded the cams when the problem first presented itself. That thought just struck me.
Last edited by Fastbird; 10-08-2014 at 05:57 PM.
10-08-2014, 06:02 PM
#18
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my thought was compression test requires "many" engine revolutions.
compressed air leakdown doesn't make you spin the crank (other than what the air pressure in the cyl does). you could do the leakdown before putting the tensioners in.
i think it's entirely possible that the ecu told one bank of phasors to adjust relative to the other. I think the service trainer had a blurb somewhere in there about that?
compressed air leakdown doesn't make you spin the crank (other than what the air pressure in the cyl does). you could do the leakdown before putting the tensioners in.
i think it's entirely possible that the ecu told one bank of phasors to adjust relative to the other. I think the service trainer had a blurb somewhere in there about that?
10-09-2014, 06:27 AM
#19
Only problem with a leakdown test....well, actually there's a couple. One, I don't have a set of leakdown gauges amazingly. But on top of that, there's no chains on the cams at this point, so just rotating the cams around to close the valves won't work as the crank is stationary (and unpinned, so air pressure would force the crank around too, which is not what I want).
I'm going out to try to pin the crank a little later today, but I'm fuzzy on one thing. Can it be pinned in multiple positions, or is there only ONE point that it can be pinned, that being #1 TDC?
I'm going out to try to pin the crank a little later today, but I'm fuzzy on one thing. Can it be pinned in multiple positions, or is there only ONE point that it can be pinned, that being #1 TDC?
10-09-2014, 09:00 AM
#20
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Only problem with a leakdown test....well, actually there's a couple. One, I don't have a set of leakdown gauges amazingly. But on top of that, there's no chains on the cams at this point, so just rotating the cams around to close the valves won't work as the crank is stationary (and unpinned, so air pressure would force the crank around too, which is not what I want).
I'm going out to try to pin the crank a little later today, but I'm fuzzy on one thing. Can it be pinned in multiple positions, or is there only ONE point that it can be pinned, that being #1 TDC?
I'm going out to try to pin the crank a little later today, but I'm fuzzy on one thing. Can it be pinned in multiple positions, or is there only ONE point that it can be pinned, that being #1 TDC?
if so, then (i know you know this, but....) you will pin the crank in a unique position, which i believe to be #1 TDC (but I'm away from the service manual). but the "cam timing" (chains are off) could be 0 or 180 relative to #1 depending on compression vs. exhaust stroke.
