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Multi Cylinder Misfire. Violent shaking. 1999 Audi A8

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Old 12-11-2011, 05:38 AM   #1
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Default Multi Cylinder Misfire. Violent shaking. 1999 Audi A8

I recently bought a 1999 audi for $1k. It has 190k miles..

when acclerating at different mpg..sometimes 40. sometimes 45. sometimes 50..etc. .. there is a VERY VERY VIOLENT SHAKING.. feels like the car is going to shake itself apart. Steering wheel doesnt really move that much. but by taking foot off gas, the shaking disappears. If I put foot back on gas immediately the shake is still there. If i let the car coast for a few secs and then put foot back on gas the shake is gone..

seller said timing belt and water pump were replaced a "recently" but i may have to verify that by checking myself.


engine seems to be strong.. still responsive and punchy. except for the shaking and...

ALso. multi cylinder misfire.. on idle and low rpm there is a NOTICABLE MIsfire.. I hooked up obd and have misfire on 4,5,1,7,2
I bought new coils and the cheap ngk vpower plugs and have misfire on 4,5,1,8.. Weird thing is that the Check engine light never came on.. wont come on.. Nothing.. its like someone disabled it.. disconnected the


Can someone help?

i have pics of cv axles. control arms.. ect


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Old 12-11-2011, 06:12 AM   #2
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On your year car, the check engine light is a replaceable bulb in the instrument cluster that can burn out (and they do)...on 2000 and up, it's an LED built into the speedometer.

Multiple misfires are often associated with a timing "jump" (belt usually)...need to check belt/valve timing...could have been installed out of time or jumped due to bad tensioner or improper installation.

Power output stages (ignition modules) usually fail 1 side at a time...either cylinders 1-4 or 5-8...not out of the question, though worth checking...but misfires on both sides are more often a timing problem or something associated with timing (engine speed sensor? ...not very likely, I think).

Control arms: The rubber bushing end (inside) often looked cracked well before failing, but the ball joint end with a torn boot will fail in no time..no repair of that boot or joint...arm replacement only.

CV boot (on axle shaft) needs to be replaced ASAP, unless you're already getting clicking or steering wheel oscillations...then the CV has already failed. If the joint is not gone, the boot/grease can be replaced with a $25 kit...otherwise many replace the entire axle/joints with aftermarket axles (acceptable, but NOT the quality of OEM, which are high $$).

Joint service when replacing boot only (does not include getting axle in and out of car...see Bentley manual):

http://forums.quattroworld.com/a8/msgs/45872.phtml

You have multiple issues to deal with and before flooding forums with questions (OK one at a time ), and searching for online tutorials (some of which you will NOT find), I highly recommend getting a manual...if you don't have that tool in your box, you are not equipped to work on your own car:

http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-D2_A8-...anuals/ES6279/
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Old 12-11-2011, 06:38 AM   #3
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Default multi cyl misfire

simple problem to fix. Pre facelift A8's have seperate output stage for coils. sorry you waisted money on new coils. Those coils are controlled in part by output stages located under plastic by your washer fluid fill. pull off plastic and remove bracket. You will see two output stage controllers. remove and swap you will confirm problem cuz the other four cly will now mis fire. Get part numbers and do research for best price. I got new one for $55 landed. use thermo paste (like for computer cpu)to secure to bracket for best heat transfer. Your picks have nothing to do with YOUR REAL problem. Your half shafts are best replaced as whole new. check local rockauto and ebay. look cose at the output shaft seals to make sure they are not leaking. your already in there and easy to replace. Around $40 for seal. Regardles check the front diff fluid level there is level plug at the right front side of your ZF5HP24. I have the right front seal I'll sell you for $30 incluing USPS shipping. Pm me if intrested. A8's are a labor of love. I have had 3 pre facelift and currently own two 2000s.

$
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Originally Posted by darrelljr00 View Post
I recently bought a 1999 audi for $1k. It has 190k miles..

when acclerating at different mpg..sometimes 40. sometimes 45. sometimes 50..etc. .. there is a VERY VERY VIOLENT SHAKING.. feels like the car is going to shake itself apart. Steering wheel doesnt really move that much. but by taking foot off gas, the shaking disappears. If I put foot back on gas immediately the shake is still there. If i let the car coast for a few secs and then put foot back on gas the shake is gone..

seller said timing belt and water pump were replaced a "recently" but i may have to verify that by checking myself.


engine seems to be strong.. still responsive and punchy. except for the shaking and...

ALso. multi cylinder misfire.. on idle and low rpm there is a NOTICABLE MIsfire.. I hooked up obd and have misfire on 4,5,1,7,2
I bought new coils and the cheap ngk vpower plugs and have misfire on 4,5,1,8.. Weird thing is that the Check engine light never came on.. wont come on.. Nothing.. its like someone disabled it.. disconnected the


Can someone help?

i have pics of cv axles. control arms.. ect


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Old 12-11-2011, 07:51 AM   #4
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So I double checked the outout stage cyl assignment. one controls cyl 1,4,6,7 and the other controls 2,3,5,8. passanger side bank is 1,2,3,4 and drivers side is 5,6,7,8. So you can see one output stage dose not control one bank. I would make sure your spark plug gap is set to .32 I ran into problems with random misfires with brand new plugs and too wide a gap. I would still swap output stages and see what happens. After some more consideration I am very concerned with your tourqe converter as root cause of your shake. You describe your shake it is not speed or RPM dependent. After your engine is smooth as silk. I would drop the trans pan and change the trans filter. You can get Fk355 filter and gasket kit from Oreilly auto parts for less than $30. I use light torque of 55in/lbs on pan cuz it is a rubber gasket not paper like factory. I have used Valvolines Max Life Fluid. Meets "LT" lifetime audi specs and you can buy it cheep at walmat. I know this is a huge point of controversy. Hate to see you pump a bunch of money into car that may need expensive trans work. Audipages.com is a great source for solid info.
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Old 12-11-2011, 08:15 AM   #5
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ill drain a few inches of trans fluid right now and post pics in a few mins...
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Old 12-11-2011, 08:26 AM   #6
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i meant a few ounces..
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Old 12-11-2011, 08:57 AM   #7
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Look before you leap! You need a solid plan to refill your trans before draining anything. I use a easy to find "orange fluid transfer hand pump" you can find them anywhere. along with a peice of 3' clear tube from lowes insert into the orange tube and clamp both tubes together. Insert a 6in section of solid copper wire stripped from romex. you can kink and create "j" to hang into fill tower. then you can fill trans with all 4 wheels on garage floor and you by the drivers door. Careful when replaceing tower plug cuz your car should be running in neutral. Block wheels Duh LOL. Cat is very hot. You will need 17mm allen socket. Bought mine at autozone pack of 3 sizes less than $15. Break loose tower plug with breaker bar. There is a drain plug on trans. So you can do drop and fill. Maybe good idea regardless because it can help eliminate low fluid as cause of problem. Then when you change Trans filter your final fluid will be far cleaner than with just filter change. Don't be discouraged if drop and fill dose little to nothing. Real problem could be dirty filter causing problems with fluid flow and ultimately creating problem with lock up funtion in torque converter. Could be time for Trans rebuild. I would not address any other problems half shafts etc. till you eliminate likely trans issues. Of course You still need to eliminate any engine missfire issues FIRST. Simple... rule out most obvious and cheepest before moving forward. Multiple misfires at shifting could make ECU and TCU do crazy things.
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Old 12-11-2011, 09:04 AM   #8
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Here is the fluid.. Im almost ashamed to post this.. I got the car 2 weeks ago.. I was going to do the fluid in a few weeks and let the car sit.. but since i got the extra nod from win72010 i drained it.. Im usually really good about changing fluids especially when i buy cheap cars..

here it is


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Old 12-11-2011, 12:04 PM   #9
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When I buy a car I assume all fluids need replaced or at least topped off. That said your ZF5HP24A has Diff fluid at rear of trany and at the front. Also "lifetime" fill of amber colored trans fluid. Dark fluid is associated with clutch wear and heat. There are 4 magnets that are going to be full of shavings. Think of them as sponges. They can only hold so much before the filter has to catch the rest and then cause restrictions. I still stand firm on confirming your spark plug gap. On 4 valve 4.2L engines I like the NGK platinum the design is simple and smart with a fine wire electrode normally found on much more exspensive irridium plugs. careful gapping to .32 Go ahead and use plastic safe contact cleaner on output stage conections and swap them. Double check ground conections. Make sure you don't have vacuum leaks. Your engine should be running smooth. One Problem solved with little out of pocket. Drain and fill trans fluid you will need 6 or 7 qts. Order your filter kit then another 7+ qrts. Walmart sells the Maxlife in gallons. I replaced the factory pan bolts that use torx and used 6 x 20mm along with HARDENDED 1/4 washers. That will spread load and not distort the pan. With a rubber gasket like in Fk355 use 55 in/lbs and your golden with either bolts. Make sure you understaand Paul W's work on audipages.com before you attempt. learn from our blood sweat and tears lol. Good news is that as far as A8's go.... $1000 is a good price car to cut your teeth on.
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Old 12-11-2011, 01:43 PM   #10
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IF you're gonna do the atf/filter change, gotta do it right...not a simple drain and fill...gotta follow procedure or you won't get the right level....exactly like this...no deviations:

http://www.audipages.com/Tech_Articl...servicing.html

You can only get the level correct with engine running, correct atf temp, following going through gears in the proper sequence and car dead level.

Personally (and opinions vary), I would address the misfires FIRST...ONE cylinder misfiring can feel like a trans coming apart.

MANY firmly believe messing with a high mileage trans in these cars that has no issues, is asking for trouble...including an atf change...the new atf can wash away material that is keeping it working (possible).

The color of your trans fluid has nothing to do with whether it's currently working correctly or not, regardless of what (nothing you can do about) turned it that color.

Again, even though I had the cylinders on power output stages wrong (I have a 40V with POs's built into coils), you still have misfires from both of them...and they rarely both fail simultaneously.
Cam (belt) timing off IS THE #1 cause of multiple misfires, that don't coincide with a single POS module...easy to check.
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Old 12-11-2011, 08:32 PM   #11
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Ok so silved2 we are talking same language. If you read my posts I make it clear that first priority is correcting missfire. Number one problem with a mostly smooth and responsive pre facelift 4.2L engine that codes with multiple misfires is WRONG PLUG and or gap. The 5v engines came with bosch plus4 open gap not able to gap type plug great plug if the coil is designed to fire it. The 4v engine came factory with standard type plug gaped at .32 The old style coil with seperate output stages are designed for that plug type. I have personally pulled bosch plus4 with less than 2k miles on my 98 A8 and replaced with the NGK Platinum gaped to .32 and solved multiple random misfires. Also my sister bought a 97 A8 and had the NGK Platinum installed that I recomened to her. She had mostly smooth running car with multible random misfires she hardly noticed anything. I drove the car and knew something was off. So I Ran My ROSS TECH and confirmed issues with misfire. Pulled the plugs and the gap was .45-.5 That is like running old worn out plugs. Needless to say that mechanic in Indy was either lazy or did not know correct gap. Car is smooth as silk now. Use good old fashion vacuum gage and do some testing. A problem cam timming will be very obvious and have less than 11 or 12 inches. your car with proper plugs and gap should give 15 or 16. cuz you have 190k miles maybe even as low as 14 inches.

As for the old fluid is the "glue" makeing an old tranny work...crazy. lets agree to dissagree. The point of drain and fill first and then filter change is the end result is much improved final fluid quality. Drain and fill 50+% fluid change. Any junk lossened by new fluid will be caught by trans filter and further clog. I would recomend maybe two or three thermo cycles cold to fully warmed up then filter change. Now you have new filter with more than 75% new fluid. Just a drain and fill is likey to damage a high mile ZF5HP24A we both agree on that point. You will still have clogged Filter and Free metal shavings are not going to be caught by magnets that already look like a chia pet. I have recomended going to Paul W's audipages.com more than once PRIOR to attempting filter change. If you read his account of limp mode car becomeing drivable after filter and fluid change. You will see the magnets. Do you want your high mile car having free metal shavings like that? Along with clogged filter? LOSS of fluid pressure as a result of clogged filter will cause all kinds of hell. Incudeing slipping in general and frying cluches, delaying of lockup etc. Witch I believe could be the shaking darrolljr00 describbed. Just know that the filter is also the trany fluid sump pickup. Even a dent in the pan could effect sump pickup. Some ZF gurus recomend removing 1/4 inch from sump tube on filter (not me). I have personlly changed the fluid in 6 ZF5HP24A tranys in the last 2 years and also complete rebuild of the valve body in one of those cars. I believe my way of fluid transfer is far superior to what Paul W recomends on audipages.com. That said I agree that car must be stone cold when you start process of filling. I recomend with the car on all fours and engine off. When the fluid starts to overflow tower...then it is time to start car and run through gears, then fill some more and repeat until your are confident of stable level. From the time you start cold car till the time you replace the tower plug should be aprox 10 min to 15 min. This recomendation is in line with Paul W's and ZF's target fluid temp. If you error... error on fluid too cool. That would result in slightest overfill. If you read Pual W's work on audipages.com he has car on 4 jackstands cuz his marine type fluid pump tansfer requires the elbow room. FAR MORE tedious and dangerous. let alone trying to level car with 4 jackstands. All four tires on level garage floor and pumping fluid safely from beside car...seems like no brainer when you compair the two methods. Keep it simple and safe. One thing we all agree on...Audis are sweet ;-) darroljr00 please keep us posted on your car
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Old 12-12-2011, 08:38 AM   #12
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Granted, timing belt jump "usually" happen on one bank. If improperly installed and cam indexing on both sides, then that's another story...I've seen some pretty stupid moves made by even Audi certfied mechanics at dealers abd indy-shops. All things are possible when it comes to incompetence.
The poster here has no history, other than what he was told...recently installed timing belt...car sold for only $1K. Well, I was just guessing that even the dumbest of sellers would try spark plugs to double the price of the car, if it could make it run smooth.

Who knows? ...only time and the discovery of the source of misfires will tell.

By the way, I filled my atf cold till overflow, then started engine, gears, etc...on level ground with a gravity feed I set up (no pump needed)...no jack stands...Also followed a combo of ZF factory and Bentley instructions. Everything important is basically exactly the same as AudiPages: Level car, correct temp, gears, overflow, etc....6 of one, a half dozen of the other.

On leaving a working (if it is?) high mileage trans alone: From a guy who's probably forgotten more than you and I put together will ever know about these trans's..a man of few words, but endless talent & knowledge about these car (esp trans) ..and NOT a proponent of changing atf in high mileage trans's (esp with unknown histories). J

Just a couple of hundreds of examples:

Post # 5:
http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=2817845

Post # 11:
http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=2817253
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Old 12-12-2011, 10:25 PM   #13
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Here is a video of my car.. I replaced the transmission fluid and new filter.. Car is still shaking.. I shot the video while i was driving .. The shaking begins at 2 minute mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_QpK...ature=youtu.be
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Old 12-13-2011, 04:59 AM   #14
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Myself? ...I'd (if safe, without traffic) shift into neutral during the shaking, to see if it's suspension related. Also on and off the gas during shaking, to see if it's torque load sensitive (engine or trans?).
Plus you really need that check engine light working (sounds like it's burned out), to see if it's flashing during shaking, which could indicate a current severe misfire.
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Old 12-13-2011, 05:12 AM   #15
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Default SHAKING

My '98 started with random misfires and now is doing the exact same thing, but mine came to this gradualy.

I replaced with no effects:

-spark plugs
-spark plug tubes
-fuel filter
-had p0321: engine speed sensor: replaced


Now i suspect the fuel pump as it only does it under charge, checking pressur today, will keep you posted.
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Old 12-13-2011, 06:22 AM   #16
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Well, fuel pump is fine: 57psi so i pulled the fuel ramp to see how the injectors were spraying and.......ugly sight:

1 had nothing comming out and the rest of them are not nice at all. I suspect the last owner used 87octane gas instead of 92-91 octane as recommended. Do that for 200k miles and this WILL happen to you, i mean.....if you dont have any money to put good gas in just dont bother buying an A8, go get a civic or somcrap!

SO:

Going to get them cleanned up at a performance shop in town today, will keep you posted.
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Old 12-13-2011, 06:25 AM   #17
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So the simple sweet truth is many heads beter thane one. I was looking for faceplate to install install double din in my 2000 A8 and ran across Darrolljr00 post. I have never felt compelled to post before. I remebered buying and then driving my 98 A8 60 miles home with one output stage gone. Dumb thing ran terrible during "Load" on engine and at 60 mph on level strech of road...almost smooth. Lean into gas and vibration...same at any steady speed. light throttle almost good...then load and vibration. Under normal load of exceleration he would have rough running engine. After rereading earlier posts and seeing the video... clear not same problem. Part of the reason I am glade we are beating this misfire topic to death is...I wish I had solid info on a propely identified topic. It is my hope that many will find value in this thread and save some money. That said this is not a properly identified post/thread lol. Gap your NGK v power plugs to .32 (good choice for 4valve 4.2L) and I believe minor issue of missfire is solved. Remember I had otherwise smooth running 4v car that only showed codeing when I hooked up my ROSS TECH. No Check engine light! Confirm status of check engine bulb by simply turning on ignition without starting car and and look. As far as timming belt as being possible issue... not likely from what I see. Just know that I do not use any special tools when doing TB service (both 4v and 5v 4.2L). I use old school method by pulling valve covers and timing cams in a way that could result in several degrees plus or minus slightly advanced or retarded. It is literally not possible to get one bank to jump tooth on cam gear and still run. Because the cam gears are not keyed, they could be slightly advanced or retarded and run "good". That issue is best checked with vacuum gauge. Thats a whole new topic. darrolljr00 needs new post..his problem is occuring at torque lock up I still strongly suggest my earier post as valid. I strongly suggest investing in ROSS TECH for anyone who owns any Audi. I have no affiliation with them just believe it is the most cost effective way to enjoy the Audi experiance :-)
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Old 12-13-2011, 06:30 AM   #18
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Had the same issue but in the opposite way under 65 mph the car was shaking; not like falling apart but between 50 and 60 mph felt almost like that, when I went over 65 mph the car went very smooth, was odd never discovered why it was doing that. Sold it two years ago but I am curious what might have caused that.
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Old 12-13-2011, 08:30 PM   #19
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1. When the car starts shaking.. shifting into nuetral and the shaking immediately stops.

2. 1 lead on the Ignition control module/power output stage shows an open lead. So 1 module is bad..

3. I noticed what i believe is a vacuum leak on the plastic "T" fitting that I THINK plugs into a fuel injector housing..


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4. I will regap all plugs to .32 today and replace the "T" fitting today and return the results..

5. These are the initial obd readings from a regular scan tool i received 2 weeks ago. (before spark plugs/ coils)

*** p138 long term fuel trim add fuel bank 2 system too lean
*** p0455 evapp emission system leak (detected gross leak, no flow)
*** p0300 Random misfire
*** p0304 misfire cylinder 4
*** p0305 misfire cylinder 5
*** p0301 misfire cylinder 1
*** p0302 misfire cylinder 2
*** p0307 misfire cylinder 7
*** p0501 vehicle speed sensor range performance


Thanks everyone for contributing your advice..


ALso @ win72010 I read that you still think it is torque converter locking up that is causing the extreme shaking.. Please explain
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Old 12-14-2011, 06:20 AM   #20
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Not sure if my advise is even worth two cents. I am going to add my 1.5 cents of advise.
Check the timing. That was one of the first things mentioned and it is what I keep coming back to on your misfire issue. Second, The axles with the torn boots. They could have been like that for the past 10,000 miles. That is what I would change to fix the shake when driving in gear.
Save your money and time. Buy new axles from ebay (43 bucks each, free ship, no tax). I bought one from ebay and it was great. Decided to replace the other side at the same time and did not want to wait for it to be shipped. Off to Autozone I went (76 plus tax). What a piece of junk. Poorly rebuilt and sloppy. Returned it and went back to ebay.

Great buy on that car! Hope you can get it back to a smooth runner. The people here are the best, and will help you all the way.
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