A8 D3 - Major retrofit
09-02-2014, 06:41 AM
#1
A8 D3 - Major retrofit
Hi Folks,
I own an Audi A8 D3. I love this car; it has some great features (such as rear air con, rear power seats and so on) that I have rarely seen in other cars of this type, at least nearby.
However, it lacks some features that I had in my previous car - A6 4F: kessy, TV tuner, telephone and BOSE sound.
I recently bought a crashed A8 which had all these and more, including ACC and sunroof (drool - I am thinking to recover it - I saw one mounted on another car, the owner changed the entire roof for that and now it looks factory-fitted... but that's another story).
I want to remove the aforementioned systems (kessy, TV, telephone, ACC, BOSE sound and interior lighting) and do a major retrofit on my car.
I already disassembled the whole car apart (the one that I recently bought) and carefully removed each element. Now I only have to remove the wire harnesses and make my own schematics so I know where each element will go (unfortunately I couldn't find instructions for each retrofit that I want to do).
I have some experience - I already retrofitted BOSE sound on an A6 4B. Normally, I should install each system and see if it works, then go to the next one.
But my concern is this: a retrofit of this complexity requires transfer of many parts from one car to another, and most of them will have component protection, which, being so many, will be kind of expensive to remove at the dealer. And since I will have to replace many controllers (including Instrument Cluster), the other car will also need many interior elements to be removed in a significant degree, including front seats, so maybe I should make the whole retrofit at once instead so I won't have to tear apart the car each time.
Now comes the tricky questions:
1) If I will replace all systems at once, then I suppose that all parts that are subject to CP will think that they are mounted on the same car they were being removed, right? I don't know where the CP information resides, but I suppose that since I will replace IC, HU, CAN Gateway and more, then CP won't kick in, at least not for as many parts.
2) Since I will install kessy system and new IC, then, if I will keep the keys from the damaged car (kessy version) and change the driver's door lock and boot lid door lock, will everything work only with the immo recoded to the new engine ECU and without the other procedures that I want to get rid of (including learning new keys etc.)?
Thank you very much,
Silkworm
PS: in the attachment, you may see the list of controllers in both cars.
I own an Audi A8 D3. I love this car; it has some great features (such as rear air con, rear power seats and so on) that I have rarely seen in other cars of this type, at least nearby.
However, it lacks some features that I had in my previous car - A6 4F: kessy, TV tuner, telephone and BOSE sound.
I recently bought a crashed A8 which had all these and more, including ACC and sunroof (drool - I am thinking to recover it - I saw one mounted on another car, the owner changed the entire roof for that and now it looks factory-fitted... but that's another story).
I want to remove the aforementioned systems (kessy, TV, telephone, ACC, BOSE sound and interior lighting) and do a major retrofit on my car.
I already disassembled the whole car apart (the one that I recently bought) and carefully removed each element. Now I only have to remove the wire harnesses and make my own schematics so I know where each element will go (unfortunately I couldn't find instructions for each retrofit that I want to do).
I have some experience - I already retrofitted BOSE sound on an A6 4B. Normally, I should install each system and see if it works, then go to the next one.
But my concern is this: a retrofit of this complexity requires transfer of many parts from one car to another, and most of them will have component protection, which, being so many, will be kind of expensive to remove at the dealer. And since I will have to replace many controllers (including Instrument Cluster), the other car will also need many interior elements to be removed in a significant degree, including front seats, so maybe I should make the whole retrofit at once instead so I won't have to tear apart the car each time.
Now comes the tricky questions:
1) If I will replace all systems at once, then I suppose that all parts that are subject to CP will think that they are mounted on the same car they were being removed, right? I don't know where the CP information resides, but I suppose that since I will replace IC, HU, CAN Gateway and more, then CP won't kick in, at least not for as many parts.
2) Since I will install kessy system and new IC, then, if I will keep the keys from the damaged car (kessy version) and change the driver's door lock and boot lid door lock, will everything work only with the immo recoded to the new engine ECU and without the other procedures that I want to get rid of (including learning new keys etc.)?
Thank you very much,
Silkworm
PS: in the attachment, you may see the list of controllers in both cars.
09-02-2014, 06:58 AM
#2
AudiWorld Super User
1) If I will replace all systems at once, then I suppose that all parts that are subject to CP will think that they are mounted on the same car they were being removed, right? I don't know where the CP information resides, but I suppose that since I will replace IC, HU, CAN Gateway and more, then CP won't kick in, at least not for as many parts.
CP is mostly VIN based, and there is no 'easy' way around it.
This is a good resource for which are CP: Audi-Resource - Component Protection
2) Since I will install kessy system and new IC, then, if I will keep the keys from the damaged car (kessy version) and change the driver's door lock and boot lid door lock, will everything work only with the immo recoded to the new engine ECU and without the other procedures that I want to get rid of (including learning new keys etc.)?
Unless you swapped every module I'd be surprised that you'd be able to work around it.
Even then.... the answer is not clear.
Your attachment is the size of a postage stamp so I can't see the parts list unfortunately.
09-02-2014, 09:18 AM
#3
Hi, thank you for your quick answer.
Yes, I know that, BUT... the electronics should get the VIN from somewhere, and unless it can be miraculously read from the chassis, then that place must be one of the onboard controllers. And since I will swap them all (well, almost), including IC (which will still have assigned the VIN from the damaged car), then how can the components know that they are on another car?
Unfortunately, I cannot swap ECM, as the damaged car had a 4.2L engine with two ECMs while my car has a 3 L engine. But the kessy retrofit was already done by other people and the immo can be paired with the ECM. I was only wondering if I can avoid buying and pairing new keys - that will be one less visit to the dealer.
I am sorry for the attachment, it got resized by the site in the uploading process. I uploaded it again.
Unfortunately, I cannot swap ECM, as the damaged car had a 4.2L engine with two ECMs while my car has a 3 L engine. But the kessy retrofit was already done by other people and the immo can be paired with the ECM. I was only wondering if I can avoid buying and pairing new keys - that will be one less visit to the dealer.
I am sorry for the attachment, it got resized by the site in the uploading process. I uploaded it again.
09-02-2014, 09:48 AM
#4
AudiWorld Super User
I suspect you will get one or more of these somewhere along the line:
This one came from an airbag module.
The VIN in stored in MVBs and adaptation channels on 01 and 17, at minimum.
Good news is Jack can help you with this if it's properly documented.
No worries on the attachment, got it now.
See also: Immobilizer - Ross-Tech Wiki
ps- erWin is your friend when in doubt on wiring
Code:
01794 - Control Module - Incorrect Chassis (VIN) Number
000 - - - MIL ON
The VIN in stored in MVBs and adaptation channels on 01 and 17, at minimum.
Good news is Jack can help you with this if it's properly documented.
No worries on the attachment, got it now.
See also: Immobilizer - Ross-Tech Wiki
ps- erWin is your friend when in doubt on wiring
09-02-2014, 06:28 PM
#5
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Silkworm,
I gotta tell ya that I admire your ambition to take on such a major project but I fear one code thrown after another even if you get everything plugged together correctly. These cars are so finicky even when we don't start cutting and splicing things. I can tell you for a fact that if I attempted this type of effort, I would be in for codehell. I don't wanna dampen your enthusiasm bc it appears you have thought this thru and have the spare cycles to do such a thing, but wouldn't it have been easier to just use the money you spent on the donor car and put that together with your trade-in and buy the car with the features you wanted? I would be interested in whether you did that math exercise and how it came out? I will follow your progress with great interest to see where this goes.
Hunter
I gotta tell ya that I admire your ambition to take on such a major project but I fear one code thrown after another even if you get everything plugged together correctly. These cars are so finicky even when we don't start cutting and splicing things. I can tell you for a fact that if I attempted this type of effort, I would be in for codehell. I don't wanna dampen your enthusiasm bc it appears you have thought this thru and have the spare cycles to do such a thing, but wouldn't it have been easier to just use the money you spent on the donor car and put that together with your trade-in and buy the car with the features you wanted? I would be interested in whether you did that math exercise and how it came out? I will follow your progress with great interest to see where this goes.
Hunter
09-02-2014, 07:37 PM
#6
AudiWorld Super User
Wait until you see something like this, or worse the byte 18 nonsense:
Code:
Address 09: Cent. Elect. (J519) Labels: 4H0-907-063.clb Part No SW: 4H0 907 063 BG HW: 4H0 907 063 Component: BCM1 2.0 H12 0100 Revision: 11012002 Serial number: 00000001073731 Coding: 09072091073C9FE18B000804A0003800009CD308820001218001085C3B00 Shop #: WSC 02313 785 00200
I do agree with your cost/benefit analysis and see on this and other forums far too many people thinks these are 'simple' vehicles.
I've seen stranger things... look at the cables in this post.
09-03-2014, 02:30 AM
#7
Hi hunterp27,
Yes, I did the math, I actually came out pretty good. In fact, I didn't plan to buy the damaged car for its features, I actually bought it because it's a gold mine for spare parts. The person who sold it to me was indemnified by the insurance company, and was allowed to keep the wreck. After almost two years, he barely sold it, and it was cheap.
I know it might be better to put some extra money and buy a new car, probably a facelift model (although I kinda like the 'old school' grill instead of the single frame), merely because it's in our nature to experience something new once in a while. But things don't work that way here. We have huge taxes - I can see here on this forum that W12 are very appreciated, but that's something we can only dream of, because we have to pay an enormous annual tax to anything over 3.0 (many people can't afford 3.0 engines either), and these engines are rare to find anyway (the donor car had a 4.2 V8 engine). Moreover, to register a car on a new name is also very expensive - we have to pay an environment tax which is big, especially for older cars with larger CO2 emissions. If I bought a new car, I had to pay a quarter of its price only for this environment tax. Maybe the new governors will rethink this law that enforces the environment tax.
However, If I will buy from ebay only the parts that needed for the retrofits that I planned to do, in the end I will probably pay more that I paid for the whole wrecked car.
Back then, when I had an A6 4B, beside the BOSE sound, I also retrofitted the OEM TV tuner. I was glad that, being an old car, I found it under $100. I considered it cheap. But when I searched for all the necessary parts: wires (including AV1+AV2 extensions which is sold separately), fakra connectors, new diversity box and new antennas (I couldn't find all 4 on the same place) and the metal frame/housing in the trunk, then it got me close to $500 with shipping fees and that wasn't cheap anymore.
Now, I have all the parts I need, at hand.
Jakematic, I looked at the pictures, and I am not scared about those wire harnesses. I am used to them
I attached some pictures to see mine. The car interior was intact and you can see how it became in just a couple of days of hard work, so yes, I am very ambitious with this project because by the time it will snow, I plan to get rid of the car and let the yard free. I dind't have any troubles removing the items, except for the steering column (the upper part with the adjustable electronics) which gave me some headaches. I have proper tools, including fancy ones like VAS 3409
In the end, I opened the plastic covers that, well... are covering the wires routed on their proper channels, but I don't have pictures with that.
I can barely wait the weekend to resume my work. I'll keep you posted. Let me know if I get too boring
Yes, I did the math, I actually came out pretty good. In fact, I didn't plan to buy the damaged car for its features, I actually bought it because it's a gold mine for spare parts. The person who sold it to me was indemnified by the insurance company, and was allowed to keep the wreck. After almost two years, he barely sold it, and it was cheap.
I know it might be better to put some extra money and buy a new car, probably a facelift model (although I kinda like the 'old school' grill instead of the single frame), merely because it's in our nature to experience something new once in a while. But things don't work that way here. We have huge taxes - I can see here on this forum that W12 are very appreciated, but that's something we can only dream of, because we have to pay an enormous annual tax to anything over 3.0 (many people can't afford 3.0 engines either), and these engines are rare to find anyway (the donor car had a 4.2 V8 engine). Moreover, to register a car on a new name is also very expensive - we have to pay an environment tax which is big, especially for older cars with larger CO2 emissions. If I bought a new car, I had to pay a quarter of its price only for this environment tax. Maybe the new governors will rethink this law that enforces the environment tax.
However, If I will buy from ebay only the parts that needed for the retrofits that I planned to do, in the end I will probably pay more that I paid for the whole wrecked car.
Back then, when I had an A6 4B, beside the BOSE sound, I also retrofitted the OEM TV tuner. I was glad that, being an old car, I found it under $100. I considered it cheap. But when I searched for all the necessary parts: wires (including AV1+AV2 extensions which is sold separately), fakra connectors, new diversity box and new antennas (I couldn't find all 4 on the same place) and the metal frame/housing in the trunk, then it got me close to $500 with shipping fees and that wasn't cheap anymore.
Now, I have all the parts I need, at hand.
Jakematic, I looked at the pictures, and I am not scared about those wire harnesses. I am used to them
I attached some pictures to see mine. The car interior was intact and you can see how it became in just a couple of days of hard work, so yes, I am very ambitious with this project because by the time it will snow, I plan to get rid of the car and let the yard free. I dind't have any troubles removing the items, except for the steering column (the upper part with the adjustable electronics) which gave me some headaches. I have proper tools, including fancy ones like VAS 3409
In the end, I opened the plastic covers that, well... are covering the wires routed on their proper channels, but I don't have pictures with that.
I can barely wait the weekend to resume my work. I'll keep you posted. Let me know if I get too boring
Last edited by silkworm; 09-03-2014 at 02:40 AM. Reason: some minor corrections - English is not my native language, sorry
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09-03-2014, 07:24 AM
#8
AudiWorld Super User
This looks like quite a bit of retrofitting and a lot of fun. Much more than buying a car with all those features. Component protection won't be problem. Dealer can do all of them at the same time and if he is fair it shouldn't be more than one hour labor.
I would go for the original car data. Component Protection should be smarter than it looks. Being in many modules it can combine information making it much more complicated than single source. Engine ECU could be the main source. Gateway and MMI Control Head are definitely not. I've replaced them in a process of retrofitting rear view camera and had to clear CP. You also want your dash VIN to match computer VIN. You never know how smart policeman you may meet in a future.
I have couple of questions. First, where are you? That tax politics sounds like north of Europe, but it could be some other nice place around the world. Next is, what sound system you have when you want to retrofit BOSE?
Check that telephone before retrofitting it. It could be outdated system.
More questions, and some answers are brewing.
I would go for the original car data. Component Protection should be smarter than it looks. Being in many modules it can combine information making it much more complicated than single source. Engine ECU could be the main source. Gateway and MMI Control Head are definitely not. I've replaced them in a process of retrofitting rear view camera and had to clear CP. You also want your dash VIN to match computer VIN. You never know how smart policeman you may meet in a future.
I have couple of questions. First, where are you? That tax politics sounds like north of Europe, but it could be some other nice place around the world. Next is, what sound system you have when you want to retrofit BOSE?
Check that telephone before retrofitting it. It could be outdated system.
More questions, and some answers are brewing.
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G274 (05-15-2021)
09-03-2014, 08:48 AM
#9
AudiWorld Super User
09-06-2014, 11:17 AM
#10
Hi mishar,
Yes, I must admit - this is a lot of fun, much more than I first imagined. I really got myself a temporary way of fueling one of my passions.
I was afraid that the main source for CP may be the engine ECU (ECM). That is one part I really cannot swap. However, if the component protection system will combine information from many modules (instead of having a main source), then, since I will change so many, there might be a chance that it won't kick in.
You changed the Head Unit and CAN Gateway, I will change also the Instrument Cluster (along with some more).
I think that such an implementation of CP, with multiple sources instead of a single one, is plausible, simply because if it would have a single main source, then if one would replace only that source, all the other modules should be in component protection because they will think they are on another car.
Too bad no one knows how component protection really works at low level.
Now, since you asked - I have the stock sound system on my car. The subwoofer doesn't function properly (02247 - Subwoofer (R148/R157) - 012 - Electrical Fault in Circuit - Intermittent) and in order to change it, I’ll either buy a new subwoofer or replace the entire sound line using the one from the donor car... which is BOSE. If it hadn't been for this problem, then maybe I would have had second thoughts about replacing the sound line. When I installed BOSE on A6 C5 in the past (I had the Blaupunkt sound system which I think it was the stock one), I wasn't much thrilled about it afterwards. I got a lot of bass, but overall, the sound seemed distorted... and thus, for my taste, the Blaupunkt sound was clearer. And it wasn't simple to install either. I got the BOSE cable from an avant (estate) car, hoping it was long enough to run it through the sills... but it wasn't as I planned and I had to run it through the middle of the car, under the carpet. That was a lot of work.
But I heard that on A8 D3, they did a good job with BOSE, and I can barely wait to see how it sounds.
I live in Europe, but on the southern side, to be more precise - in Romania (a beautiful country that many didn't hear of). This is a lot closer to the German manufacturer. Nevertheless, I am very glad that these cars are much appreciated on your side of the world, and that I found a forum that is very active on this matter. And speaking about tax politics (and a little off topic) – at the time of speaking, many cars owned by Romanian citizens are registered in the neighbor country – Bulgaria, where taxes are much more relaxed.
jakematic, don’t laugh, you will be surprised to find out that here, junkyards employees are very careless. You may buy a spare part with screwdriver marks or with snatched or cut wires. I like to think that you can do anything with proper tools. Without the right tools or with improvised ones, you may end up with a damaged part. I am still ‘hunting’ some rare-to-find pliers for some kind of hose clamps.
Yes, I must admit - this is a lot of fun, much more than I first imagined. I really got myself a temporary way of fueling one of my passions.
I was afraid that the main source for CP may be the engine ECU (ECM). That is one part I really cannot swap. However, if the component protection system will combine information from many modules (instead of having a main source), then, since I will change so many, there might be a chance that it won't kick in.
You changed the Head Unit and CAN Gateway, I will change also the Instrument Cluster (along with some more).
I think that such an implementation of CP, with multiple sources instead of a single one, is plausible, simply because if it would have a single main source, then if one would replace only that source, all the other modules should be in component protection because they will think they are on another car.
Too bad no one knows how component protection really works at low level.
Now, since you asked - I have the stock sound system on my car. The subwoofer doesn't function properly (02247 - Subwoofer (R148/R157) - 012 - Electrical Fault in Circuit - Intermittent) and in order to change it, I’ll either buy a new subwoofer or replace the entire sound line using the one from the donor car... which is BOSE. If it hadn't been for this problem, then maybe I would have had second thoughts about replacing the sound line. When I installed BOSE on A6 C5 in the past (I had the Blaupunkt sound system which I think it was the stock one), I wasn't much thrilled about it afterwards. I got a lot of bass, but overall, the sound seemed distorted... and thus, for my taste, the Blaupunkt sound was clearer. And it wasn't simple to install either. I got the BOSE cable from an avant (estate) car, hoping it was long enough to run it through the sills... but it wasn't as I planned and I had to run it through the middle of the car, under the carpet. That was a lot of work.
But I heard that on A8 D3, they did a good job with BOSE, and I can barely wait to see how it sounds.
I live in Europe, but on the southern side, to be more precise - in Romania (a beautiful country that many didn't hear of). This is a lot closer to the German manufacturer. Nevertheless, I am very glad that these cars are much appreciated on your side of the world, and that I found a forum that is very active on this matter. And speaking about tax politics (and a little off topic) – at the time of speaking, many cars owned by Romanian citizens are registered in the neighbor country – Bulgaria, where taxes are much more relaxed.
jakematic, don’t laugh, you will be surprised to find out that here, junkyards employees are very careless. You may buy a spare part with screwdriver marks or with snatched or cut wires. I like to think that you can do anything with proper tools. Without the right tools or with improvised ones, you may end up with a damaged part. I am still ‘hunting’ some rare-to-find pliers for some kind of hose clamps.
Last edited by silkworm; 09-06-2014 at 11:23 AM.