Big 3 of car batteries--where most really come from
01-13-2015, 11:19 AM
#1
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
Big 3 of car batteries--where most really come from
We've had a bunch of posts lately about D3 batteries--AGM vs. conventional flooded and related coding, various brands, sales etc. A little story, then bigger picture.
I was in search of a new battery the other day for my Mini S. 6+ years old, on the original battery and starting to fade per starter cranking. I'm a believer in not waiting until bitter end. Net, I ended up at... Home Depot. Why? OE battery in car says Exide on top labeling alongside the Mini part # and capacity info. I knew they had Exide branded ones at Home Depot and their prices were normal discount type. Like on the D3 there are a few Mini sizes, and I tracked it to my case size, which was the bigger one. CCA way stepped up on the one on the shelf and reserve capacity the same, along with weight, so off I want to Home Depot. They are listed on line but are store only like most places for batteries. Some Minis have a battery coding routine--along with the nightmarish lack of easy to use comprehensive software like VCDS for anything BMW/Mini--but fortunately not this Mini. Looked at Interstate and made a few calls but they were 20% more even at the sole remaining discount "foreign car parts" store in the whole area--sells batteries for less than most other Interstate places from experience. Couldn't get too excited about AGM since they priced a good amount higher, were generally heavier, and car is driven regularly anyway with zero history of let downs. I know the flooded vs. AGM tradeoffs from boats where they have been an option for years. Like everything else at HD, no help around even though these are right by the exit door and cash registers, so I grabbed the battery with the newest manufacturing date.
As I was poking at this, I found this link to a very detailed listing of battery brands and underlying sources: Lead-Acid Battery Manufacturers and Brand Names List 2014 Someone put a boatload of time into this! Takes time to soak it in, but big picture it basically confirms for 95% of the brands thrown around on the board--whether supposed battery names or store brands--they come back to the same "Big 3": East Penn, Exide and Johnson Controls. Thus a DieHard is variously an East Penn or a Johnson (and used to be Exide); a Varta is a Johnson Controls; a Carquest, some Duralast, some NAPA, O'Reilly or SeaGel (the West Marine stuff given their longstanding sale of AGM's) is East Penn; an Autolite is an Exide (as was my Mini or various BMW's). And Johnson Controls is a long list: Some Advance Auto and Duralast, Bosch, Car&Driver/Target, Kirkland/Costco, Delphi, Delco, Ford, Energizer, Everlast/Walmart, Interstate, Motorcraft, Optima, etc. Walmart used to be Exide BTW from various searches when I was pinning down Mini battery, but they dropped Exide a few years back (often bare knuckle price stuff), which was one of the things cited in their filing for reorganization/bankruptcy. At the top of the list it explains how to i.d. the manufacturer--besides the list--with the MSDS and other things. For what it's worth, I used to notice the cases for typical Audi sizes were fairly distinct if OES, but that is not obvious most of the time I glance at them on the shelf these days. Could be so many of the on the shelf store brands go back to Johnson Controls though so it nets to the same thing.
Like many I bought on price and ease of doing. On my D3 it actually was from local dealer, but I happened to have a coupon that netted to what I've seen the "big boy" D3 size sell for at many places. For Mini it was the actual battery manufacturer brand sold at Home Depot, and I had no dealer coupon, and the dealer is a longer freeway drive away. For others, with this list you can tie back to who really made it for a lot of store brands, but in the end you will probably get back to the same three names. Thus for many, you can then just get to bottom line price and decide. If you want to stick close to the supplier under the nominal OES (Varta), many underlying store brands go back to Johnson Controls.
I was in search of a new battery the other day for my Mini S. 6+ years old, on the original battery and starting to fade per starter cranking. I'm a believer in not waiting until bitter end. Net, I ended up at... Home Depot. Why? OE battery in car says Exide on top labeling alongside the Mini part # and capacity info. I knew they had Exide branded ones at Home Depot and their prices were normal discount type. Like on the D3 there are a few Mini sizes, and I tracked it to my case size, which was the bigger one. CCA way stepped up on the one on the shelf and reserve capacity the same, along with weight, so off I want to Home Depot. They are listed on line but are store only like most places for batteries. Some Minis have a battery coding routine--along with the nightmarish lack of easy to use comprehensive software like VCDS for anything BMW/Mini--but fortunately not this Mini. Looked at Interstate and made a few calls but they were 20% more even at the sole remaining discount "foreign car parts" store in the whole area--sells batteries for less than most other Interstate places from experience. Couldn't get too excited about AGM since they priced a good amount higher, were generally heavier, and car is driven regularly anyway with zero history of let downs. I know the flooded vs. AGM tradeoffs from boats where they have been an option for years. Like everything else at HD, no help around even though these are right by the exit door and cash registers, so I grabbed the battery with the newest manufacturing date.
As I was poking at this, I found this link to a very detailed listing of battery brands and underlying sources: Lead-Acid Battery Manufacturers and Brand Names List 2014 Someone put a boatload of time into this! Takes time to soak it in, but big picture it basically confirms for 95% of the brands thrown around on the board--whether supposed battery names or store brands--they come back to the same "Big 3": East Penn, Exide and Johnson Controls. Thus a DieHard is variously an East Penn or a Johnson (and used to be Exide); a Varta is a Johnson Controls; a Carquest, some Duralast, some NAPA, O'Reilly or SeaGel (the West Marine stuff given their longstanding sale of AGM's) is East Penn; an Autolite is an Exide (as was my Mini or various BMW's). And Johnson Controls is a long list: Some Advance Auto and Duralast, Bosch, Car&Driver/Target, Kirkland/Costco, Delphi, Delco, Ford, Energizer, Everlast/Walmart, Interstate, Motorcraft, Optima, etc. Walmart used to be Exide BTW from various searches when I was pinning down Mini battery, but they dropped Exide a few years back (often bare knuckle price stuff), which was one of the things cited in their filing for reorganization/bankruptcy. At the top of the list it explains how to i.d. the manufacturer--besides the list--with the MSDS and other things. For what it's worth, I used to notice the cases for typical Audi sizes were fairly distinct if OES, but that is not obvious most of the time I glance at them on the shelf these days. Could be so many of the on the shelf store brands go back to Johnson Controls though so it nets to the same thing.
Like many I bought on price and ease of doing. On my D3 it actually was from local dealer, but I happened to have a coupon that netted to what I've seen the "big boy" D3 size sell for at many places. For Mini it was the actual battery manufacturer brand sold at Home Depot, and I had no dealer coupon, and the dealer is a longer freeway drive away. For others, with this list you can tie back to who really made it for a lot of store brands, but in the end you will probably get back to the same three names. Thus for many, you can then just get to bottom line price and decide. If you want to stick close to the supplier under the nominal OES (Varta), many underlying store brands go back to Johnson Controls.
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 07-10-2015 at 08:31 AM.
01-17-2015, 04:47 AM
#5
AudiWorld Super User
Agreed, Misha. These batteries are built to different price points.
IME, some of the more expensive batteries may be a better value as they are likely to provide a longer service life.
MP4.2, where are car batteries in Home Depot. I can't say I've ever noticed...
thanks.
01-17-2015, 05:02 AM
#6
AudiWorld Super User
Since we are in the heart of battery replacement season, I'll mention an experience I had last week. I could see my OE battery (flooded L-A) was getting weak per the MMI battery gage. I believe that gage represents remaining battery life, not state of charge. My OE Moll battery was produced the last week of Feb 2011. So, it's just about 4 yrs old and the battery meter was moving down to about 35% - 40%. Charging no longer had any impact on this reading.
I went to our local Interstate distribution center to see what they had to offer. They sell blems and re-conditioned batteries that meet their test criteria for a fraction of the price of a new battery. The new Interstate battery for my car was around $240. They did have a "re-conditioned" battery in the 94R AGM size I needed for $55. The guy brought the battery out and I could see that it was an OE Audi/VW battery even though they strip off all the labels. I could still read the date stamp on the post (6/2014). So, I said to myself, "how wrong could this battery be for $55?" Yeah, it's a bit counter-intuitive to buy a used battery, but I decided to take a shot at it since he told me the battery was showing >1000 CCA. The battery I went to purchase was rated at 850 CCA, IIRC.
Moral of the story: If you are in a large metro area of the USA, it may be worth your time to check with the local Interstate distribution center to see if they have a battery in your size.
The new battery shows a 118% remaining lifetime on the VCDS screen:
I went to our local Interstate distribution center to see what they had to offer. They sell blems and re-conditioned batteries that meet their test criteria for a fraction of the price of a new battery. The new Interstate battery for my car was around $240. They did have a "re-conditioned" battery in the 94R AGM size I needed for $55. The guy brought the battery out and I could see that it was an OE Audi/VW battery even though they strip off all the labels. I could still read the date stamp on the post (6/2014). So, I said to myself, "how wrong could this battery be for $55?" Yeah, it's a bit counter-intuitive to buy a used battery, but I decided to take a shot at it since he told me the battery was showing >1000 CCA. The battery I went to purchase was rated at 850 CCA, IIRC.
Moral of the story: If you are in a large metro area of the USA, it may be worth your time to check with the local Interstate distribution center to see if they have a battery in your size.
The new battery shows a 118% remaining lifetime on the VCDS screen:
01-17-2015, 06:14 AM
#7
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I've been to the East Penn Manufacturing facility (aka "Deka"). Incredible facility and all kinds of Q/C. Not that it makes any difference. The point of manufacture to the shelf life of the delivery to the purchase date-- save yourself potentially a year by looking at a battery very carefully before you purchase. Most will have a manufactured date code.
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01-17-2015, 08:26 AM
#8
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Thread Starter
Home Depot location; battery quality range
Showed up some months ago, at least at one of my local ones. They are right by the exit door past the cash registers, at least in the more common store layout (there are a few different layouts around here depending on building shape and entrance). A guy asked me the same question in line; I pointed him to the rack literally 20 feet away that he said he never noticed. On the web site too, but it's a store only sale proposition.
Not promoting H.D.; more just pointing out that Audi battery distribution has moved from almost unobtanium when I was in college to total commodity today, and that so many of the "brands" out there really just come back to the same three in various states of dress, drag and camouflage.
.
By the way, on price points, agreed, but having looked at the Interstates first, that was true even within the brand's line. Interstate had both a cheaper and a more expensive flooded and cheaper and more expensive AGM in the one specific size (48), plus the same thing in the smaller size. Weights varied some even for the same type (like 48 AGM), an indicator there were internal differences. But since H.D. was $120 basically for flooded high capacity branded Exide, cheapest Interstate as about $160 from the indy store, and over $250 for the "best" AGM from the Interstate factory place, pretty easy. I had looked at the Exide site, and the H.D. one was the "better" of their two flooded in the Group 48. Glanced at DieHard too (also meaning same manufacturer underneath as Interstate since Sears dumped Exide), but they were listed for a fair amount more $ and no sale was running. Also pretty easy since it's a Mini with a 1.6L, with a stick and no huge power consumers, with AAA if ever needed, and I pulled out what looked like a basic Exide with lower marked capacity specs to start. Around 700 CCAs and 120 min reserve for a 1.6 is pretty overkill to start with; what I put back in. 4-5 years on any battery is what I expect and exceeded that already with the OE one--I pull on any second letdown (unexplained going flat, slow or no start, etc.). I consciously avoid running them to the bitter end, more so with D3 type electronic and power demands or any vehicle I put wife or kids in regularly. I see more average out of Audis sometimes, but likely because they are often in the trunk or used to be under the back seat. My C5 4.2 was in the plenum area just like the Mini, and seemed to have the more conventional life of many a vehicle I have owned with battery somewhere under hood.
Not promoting H.D.; more just pointing out that Audi battery distribution has moved from almost unobtanium when I was in college to total commodity today, and that so many of the "brands" out there really just come back to the same three in various states of dress, drag and camouflage.
.
By the way, on price points, agreed, but having looked at the Interstates first, that was true even within the brand's line. Interstate had both a cheaper and a more expensive flooded and cheaper and more expensive AGM in the one specific size (48), plus the same thing in the smaller size. Weights varied some even for the same type (like 48 AGM), an indicator there were internal differences. But since H.D. was $120 basically for flooded high capacity branded Exide, cheapest Interstate as about $160 from the indy store, and over $250 for the "best" AGM from the Interstate factory place, pretty easy. I had looked at the Exide site, and the H.D. one was the "better" of their two flooded in the Group 48. Glanced at DieHard too (also meaning same manufacturer underneath as Interstate since Sears dumped Exide), but they were listed for a fair amount more $ and no sale was running. Also pretty easy since it's a Mini with a 1.6L, with a stick and no huge power consumers, with AAA if ever needed, and I pulled out what looked like a basic Exide with lower marked capacity specs to start. Around 700 CCAs and 120 min reserve for a 1.6 is pretty overkill to start with; what I put back in. 4-5 years on any battery is what I expect and exceeded that already with the OE one--I pull on any second letdown (unexplained going flat, slow or no start, etc.). I consciously avoid running them to the bitter end, more so with D3 type electronic and power demands or any vehicle I put wife or kids in regularly. I see more average out of Audis sometimes, but likely because they are often in the trunk or used to be under the back seat. My C5 4.2 was in the plenum area just like the Mini, and seemed to have the more conventional life of many a vehicle I have owned with battery somewhere under hood.
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 07-10-2015 at 08:33 AM.
01-30-2015, 11:39 AM
#9
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Re age of batteries; anyone else remember when they came dry and the guy had to fill them with H2SO4?
Had a talk at Advanced Auto the other day with a relatively well informed employee, trying to discover the advantage the AGMs have, but no luck. He DID however, show me an interesting item I was not aware of - lithium "powersports" (e.g. motorcycle, jetski) batteries. Virtually weightless! I figured with three wired in parallel I'd have over 1000CCAs and would shave ~100 pounds from the D3's weight! Only drawback is it'd shave ~$750 from my wallet as well.
Good info, and thanks for the link.
01-30-2015, 02:04 PM
#10
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Thread Starter
Hah! On AGM's
don't bother with the average counter guy in this day and age unless they are "old school" and not minimum wage crowd. Oh yeah, and at the other home depot where I took the core back, I went to the returns desk and said here's my core. After we got past that I wasn't trying to return the battery I bought, I honestly had to tell the help what a core charge was. Not a clue.
Best info I have tended to find on AGM's is from the boat side, where they have been around for years now. Personally I'm not convinced and don't even run one on my runabout boat, where I use a trickle charger instead since it lives in a garage 98% of the time. Thus see: Selecting a Marine Storage Battery | West Marine
Short version is AGM's are better for deep discharge--kind of a cross between an old marine deep cycle and a flooded starting battery. Marine deep cycle would be for things like trolling motors (BTDT) and sustained shore or water floating/moored use where you are drawing current and don't want to turn motor over. In an Audi, think of stuff like MMI/stereo drain on steroids--like VCDS with key on for like 3 hours. They are also truly sealed--unlike the faux stuff of flooded "maintenance free" batteries with the caps still there but buried under labels. AGM's take more vibration with the way the plates are done. Downsides are they are heavier for a given size, typically don't have as many CCA's as a flooded battery (why they call 'em "starter" batteries!), and pricier.
Since Audi batteries actually live a pretty coddled existence in the trunk (or under seat in most much older ones) and take nothing like the pounding of my runabout with a fiberglass hull in a two foot chop at 35-40 that still uses a cheap group 24 flooded starter battery, I don't worry about the vibration type sales pitch either.
Net, you can't go wrong with either, but I wasn't convinced of value. IIRC, D4's (or some Audi) are now running with TWIN batteries--one AGM and one flooded--to deal with the two common use scenarios. More German over engineering to me.
Best info I have tended to find on AGM's is from the boat side, where they have been around for years now. Personally I'm not convinced and don't even run one on my runabout boat, where I use a trickle charger instead since it lives in a garage 98% of the time. Thus see: Selecting a Marine Storage Battery | West Marine
Short version is AGM's are better for deep discharge--kind of a cross between an old marine deep cycle and a flooded starting battery. Marine deep cycle would be for things like trolling motors (BTDT) and sustained shore or water floating/moored use where you are drawing current and don't want to turn motor over. In an Audi, think of stuff like MMI/stereo drain on steroids--like VCDS with key on for like 3 hours. They are also truly sealed--unlike the faux stuff of flooded "maintenance free" batteries with the caps still there but buried under labels. AGM's take more vibration with the way the plates are done. Downsides are they are heavier for a given size, typically don't have as many CCA's as a flooded battery (why they call 'em "starter" batteries!), and pricier.
Since Audi batteries actually live a pretty coddled existence in the trunk (or under seat in most much older ones) and take nothing like the pounding of my runabout with a fiberglass hull in a two foot chop at 35-40 that still uses a cheap group 24 flooded starter battery, I don't worry about the vibration type sales pitch either.
Net, you can't go wrong with either, but I wasn't convinced of value. IIRC, D4's (or some Audi) are now running with TWIN batteries--one AGM and one flooded--to deal with the two common use scenarios. More German over engineering to me.
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 01-30-2015 at 02:10 PM.