Front end shimmey felt in steering wheel
02-28-2015, 07:47 AM
#21
AudiWorld Super User
Thanks very much Mishar. I was going to actually ask about the jack mode and if that would affect setup. Have a bigger fish to fry now..........after loosening the knuckle to retighten at the appropriate suspension level, I noticed a crack on the knuckle where the pincher bolt tightens it---used a screw driver to inspect------it broke right off!!! So cars out of commission, but I was lucky to find an OEM knuckle on eBay and shipping it out overnight.....I guess I have more reading to do on replacing this.
02-28-2015, 09:09 AM
#22
AudiWorld Member
Thread Starter
I didn't pry in the open slot, and I sledged bolt with a screw that was just slightly smaller than pincher bolt on the bolt itself after pulling the bolt 3/4 of the way through by tightening the nut side and adding PB Blaster along the way. So I didn't deviate from the manual I don't think - but more than frustrated... I did find a knuckle on eBay - but obviously a much more involved now and many more potential pitfalls
02-28-2015, 12:58 PM
#23
AudiWorld Super User
On potential pitfalls and preparing ahead...
Too bad to hear.
To be sober, yes I would prepare for more. In particular be prepared for hassles getting the lower arms out of the bottom of the knuckle, and a big torque surprise on the CV axle bolt. See if anyone can advise on their D3 specific experiences here. I think Mister Bally went through this in DIY mode on his D3.
On my C5 2000 A6 4.2 with basically the same aluminum arm and knuckle set up, I could not get the lower arms off the knuckle ball joint bolt up points without pulling the whole knuckle assembly with the lower arms out of the car, which of course meant unbolting them from the other bushing end. The lower front was okay removal wise, but the back bolt clearances were really hard. IIRC I demo sawed that bolt out along the way. FWIW, that was a California car since new with about 100K, 10 years old, at the time I did it.
I would take a go at yours even before the new knuckle arrives. Realize in turn that will likely have a hub in it, with a bearing to assess (you may already know from the sale listing). You are going to have to pull the drive axle anyway either to replace the knuckle or to get at those lower arm ball joints, and also realize the torque on that CV axle holt is huge. Do NOT pull a bunch of stuff apart before you get the CV axle bolt out. Unless you have a shop torque multiplier tool, figure you will need the sturdiest ½" breaker bar available, the right socket (often a 17mm allen type (can be bought as a ½" drive socket) but sometimes a bolt style) and probably a piece of metal pipe 5 feet or greater long for leverage--probably at least 1 ½" nominal galv. so it doesn't bend too. You literally stand on it! Parking brake set of course. I have broken a couple of "breaker" bars doing that so am also careful of my footing and any proximity to car body work. Craftsman breaker bar of course (or similar warranted one) where I just show up at the counter with my broken one in hand if it gives way...
The CV bolt is the stretch type, so you should replace it. Adding to the fun BTW is if you undo the bolt with weight on the bearing you can screw it up, but of course you need the weight given the forces involved. But I think you will be picking up the bearing from the replacement anyway--or screwing up your current bearing on the way to transferring the hub over to the new knuckle if it didn't come with the hub. On the tightening end BTW, I basically just get it as tight as I can with the car off the ground still (150 ft lbs plus), then lower it and get some weight on wheel and immediately use the lever arm method to complete the unbelievably high torque you will see you have to apply to do it to the full spec.
To be sober, yes I would prepare for more. In particular be prepared for hassles getting the lower arms out of the bottom of the knuckle, and a big torque surprise on the CV axle bolt. See if anyone can advise on their D3 specific experiences here. I think Mister Bally went through this in DIY mode on his D3.
On my C5 2000 A6 4.2 with basically the same aluminum arm and knuckle set up, I could not get the lower arms off the knuckle ball joint bolt up points without pulling the whole knuckle assembly with the lower arms out of the car, which of course meant unbolting them from the other bushing end. The lower front was okay removal wise, but the back bolt clearances were really hard. IIRC I demo sawed that bolt out along the way. FWIW, that was a California car since new with about 100K, 10 years old, at the time I did it.
I would take a go at yours even before the new knuckle arrives. Realize in turn that will likely have a hub in it, with a bearing to assess (you may already know from the sale listing). You are going to have to pull the drive axle anyway either to replace the knuckle or to get at those lower arm ball joints, and also realize the torque on that CV axle holt is huge. Do NOT pull a bunch of stuff apart before you get the CV axle bolt out. Unless you have a shop torque multiplier tool, figure you will need the sturdiest ½" breaker bar available, the right socket (often a 17mm allen type (can be bought as a ½" drive socket) but sometimes a bolt style) and probably a piece of metal pipe 5 feet or greater long for leverage--probably at least 1 ½" nominal galv. so it doesn't bend too. You literally stand on it! Parking brake set of course. I have broken a couple of "breaker" bars doing that so am also careful of my footing and any proximity to car body work. Craftsman breaker bar of course (or similar warranted one) where I just show up at the counter with my broken one in hand if it gives way...
The CV bolt is the stretch type, so you should replace it. Adding to the fun BTW is if you undo the bolt with weight on the bearing you can screw it up, but of course you need the weight given the forces involved. But I think you will be picking up the bearing from the replacement anyway--or screwing up your current bearing on the way to transferring the hub over to the new knuckle if it didn't come with the hub. On the tightening end BTW, I basically just get it as tight as I can with the car off the ground still (150 ft lbs plus), then lower it and get some weight on wheel and immediately use the lever arm method to complete the unbelievably high torque you will see you have to apply to do it to the full spec.
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 02-28-2015 at 01:09 PM.
03-01-2015, 07:31 AM
#24
AudiWorld Member
Thread Starter
Sobering for sure
Seems like fun. Couple of questions.
Have never used a torque multiplier. Why type of torque would this multiplier need to produce to help. I see these for sale for $100 to $3000. Would the $100 one do the job? Or better your process below. Also what size are the star bolts holding the bearing hub
Finally- What is the torque spec on the axle bolt on reassembly. Thanks as always
. Couple of questions. Have never used a torque multiplier. Why type of torque would this multiplier need to produce to help. I see these for sale for $100 to $3000. Would the $100 one do the job? Or better your process below. Also what size are the star bolts holding the bearing hub
Finally- What is the torque spec on the axle bolt on reassembly. Thanks as always
03-01-2015, 08:19 AM
#25
AudiWorld Super User
I never said you pried it open, You mentioned you "sledged it" which sounded like you beat the stuck one out using a mandrel and sledge hammer on the casting. One miss with a sledge hammer and you could have hit one of the sides opposite the slotted area and created a fracture.
As for the torque spec, you need to to torque the stretch bolt to a rather high Nm spec and then turn it an additional amount per the service manual. Either 1/2 turn or maybe 3/4 turn IIRC. Best to check the service manual. Especially as the spec may be different between model years as well.
You need the service manual to perform this procedure and have a reference available when working on the car. Let's say someone here posts pages from the manual and you use it; Then when working on the car something sort of related like say the wheel bearing causes you a problem and you have no manual. Do you stop and come here and post asking for someone to post another section of the manual? Maybe you want to do that but I want to keep working on the car and get the job done.
I ordered the manual CD-Rom from Bentley within a couple days of buying the car which was back in December 2005. The service manual lists tools required for the job and all torque specs.
I had to use a 3/4" drive breaker bar to get the front stretch bolt tightened properly.
As for the 12 point star tool for the bearings; IIRC, it was 10 mm size.
Also, when someone posts sections of a copyrighted work here, it violates an agreement made when they bought the manual. I have seen it happen on other forums where one day the copyright owner gets forums to remove such postings and eventually everyone suffers for this.
As for the torque spec, you need to to torque the stretch bolt to a rather high Nm spec and then turn it an additional amount per the service manual. Either 1/2 turn or maybe 3/4 turn IIRC. Best to check the service manual. Especially as the spec may be different between model years as well.
You need the service manual to perform this procedure and have a reference available when working on the car. Let's say someone here posts pages from the manual and you use it; Then when working on the car something sort of related like say the wheel bearing causes you a problem and you have no manual. Do you stop and come here and post asking for someone to post another section of the manual? Maybe you want to do that but I want to keep working on the car and get the job done.
I ordered the manual CD-Rom from Bentley within a couple days of buying the car which was back in December 2005. The service manual lists tools required for the job and all torque specs.
I had to use a 3/4" drive breaker bar to get the front stretch bolt tightened properly.
As for the 12 point star tool for the bearings; IIRC, it was 10 mm size.
Also, when someone posts sections of a copyrighted work here, it violates an agreement made when they bought the manual. I have seen it happen on other forums where one day the copyright owner gets forums to remove such postings and eventually everyone suffers for this.
Last edited by Mister Bally; 03-01-2015 at 08:39 AM.
03-01-2015, 11:00 AM
#26
AudiWorld Super User
+1 generally; more
You are way beyond the point where you should have a manual. Please confirm.
I think the star bolts for the bearing are M12. Make sure to buy a set clearly marked as such/as metric. I've seen these personally be a little sloppy on these specific bolts. One head strips out and you are screwed again, since they are hardened and virtually impossible to drill out. I fought with one like that on my A6 and just barely got it out. Changed my wrench set with that experience. BTW, definitely replace the bearing inner bolts (qty 4 typically). I had one back out on my 2000 A6 4.2 with the same cartridge bearing set up. The bearing had been replaced by the DEALER in the first place under warranty, and it was a sudden horrendous grinding noise as it hit the outside of the CV joint. Had to get it towed home and pull it apart. No fun.
Torque multiplier--I don't know. One or two have mentioned it over the years in the specific job before. Often they seem to connect to big shops that probably deal with heavy suspensions, or have access to heavy equipment/over the road truck type tools. I just do it the long (scrap) galvanized pipe way with a ½" drive. Thus still normal good DIY tools and a little ingenuity. Being clear, it has to be a rigid pipe as the lever arm, like heavy galvanized. EMT conduit, antenna mast, etc. will just bend. A ¾" drive would be more up to it, but good luck finding a 17mm allen head socket in ¾". Once you adapt down to ½, the adapter (or the socket metal from the square connector to the big allen tip) will be the weak point anyway. Thus, I just figure worst case the breaker bar (or socket) is toast and I get another one. As another alternative to the socket head and drive BTW (if that's your set up): old VW air cooled Bugs used to use a 17mm oil plug and they sold a ginormous single piece allen head type wrench for it. I still have one since the 17 mm comes up with occasional Audi diff. plugs. You could also go that way with the right sized pipe to fit over it--maybe even doubled up--like a 1" sleeve inside of a 1-½" longer length.
Check the torque in the manual, but as Mister Bally references, the problem is you already go to near the normal firm ½" wrench type torques for big bolts, and then you go either 90 or 180 degrees more. It is hardened steel to hardened steel, so that last part of the torquing takes the mega lever arms or their equivalent. Same (or worse) for breaking them. In my all time record, one time I went after one with a 10' piece of pipe to do it with my arms instead of standing on it. Also, putting something sturdy and basic at the same height under the wrench head is a good idea to keep the wrench from twisting off angle as you apply the big forces. The bolt is supposedly a stretch one, so I would definitely replace it too; can't get to accurate torque otherwise, especially with the forces here.
I think the star bolts for the bearing are M12. Make sure to buy a set clearly marked as such/as metric. I've seen these personally be a little sloppy on these specific bolts. One head strips out and you are screwed again, since they are hardened and virtually impossible to drill out. I fought with one like that on my A6 and just barely got it out. Changed my wrench set with that experience. BTW, definitely replace the bearing inner bolts (qty 4 typically). I had one back out on my 2000 A6 4.2 with the same cartridge bearing set up. The bearing had been replaced by the DEALER in the first place under warranty, and it was a sudden horrendous grinding noise as it hit the outside of the CV joint. Had to get it towed home and pull it apart. No fun.
Torque multiplier--I don't know. One or two have mentioned it over the years in the specific job before. Often they seem to connect to big shops that probably deal with heavy suspensions, or have access to heavy equipment/over the road truck type tools. I just do it the long (scrap) galvanized pipe way with a ½" drive. Thus still normal good DIY tools and a little ingenuity. Being clear, it has to be a rigid pipe as the lever arm, like heavy galvanized. EMT conduit, antenna mast, etc. will just bend. A ¾" drive would be more up to it, but good luck finding a 17mm allen head socket in ¾". Once you adapt down to ½, the adapter (or the socket metal from the square connector to the big allen tip) will be the weak point anyway. Thus, I just figure worst case the breaker bar (or socket) is toast and I get another one. As another alternative to the socket head and drive BTW (if that's your set up): old VW air cooled Bugs used to use a 17mm oil plug and they sold a ginormous single piece allen head type wrench for it. I still have one since the 17 mm comes up with occasional Audi diff. plugs. You could also go that way with the right sized pipe to fit over it--maybe even doubled up--like a 1" sleeve inside of a 1-½" longer length.
Check the torque in the manual, but as Mister Bally references, the problem is you already go to near the normal firm ½" wrench type torques for big bolts, and then you go either 90 or 180 degrees more. It is hardened steel to hardened steel, so that last part of the torquing takes the mega lever arms or their equivalent. Same (or worse) for breaking them. In my all time record, one time I went after one with a 10' piece of pipe to do it with my arms instead of standing on it. Also, putting something sturdy and basic at the same height under the wrench head is a good idea to keep the wrench from twisting off angle as you apply the big forces. The bolt is supposedly a stretch one, so I would definitely replace it too; can't get to accurate torque otherwise, especially with the forces here.
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 03-01-2015 at 06:01 PM.
03-02-2015, 06:24 PM
#28
AudiWorld Member
Thread Starter
Question. You had indicated the axel bolt is 17mm. Every video I have seen on you tube on axle removal states 17mm. I bought all new hex impact bits. 17mm is too small. 19 is too big. Of course my set of new bits includes every bit except for 18mm. Thoughts on why this is not 17mm. I have owned the car since 09 with 30k?
03-02-2015, 06:31 PM
#29
AudiWorld Super User
Not sure...
Typically 17mm. Would have done my 2000 A6 4.2 with the same cartridge set up and bolt stuff with a 17mm, since I don't own an 18mm either. My car isn't here as I type this, but I did just check the wife's 2013 Q5. Sure enough 18mm apparently, since my usual 17mm is sloppy in it.
$2 as an add on one via Amazon, but that one isn't remotely like the heft of the 17mm one I use which is over an inch in diameter in the metal enclosing the allen head.
Not sure you will break it with an impact/air gun either (if you are going there), but sure give it a try. I think it has been tried before. But yes, beefy tools here make sense regardless. Given the lever arm length, body weight and some initial body weight shifting to nudge it (kind of like an impact blow), it wouldn't surprise me if effective torque on it approximates 1,000 foot pounds. My air gun wouldn't get there. Single highest torque thing on an Audi AFAIK.
$2 as an add on one via Amazon, but that one isn't remotely like the heft of the 17mm one I use which is over an inch in diameter in the metal enclosing the allen head.
Not sure you will break it with an impact/air gun either (if you are going there), but sure give it a try. I think it has been tried before. But yes, beefy tools here make sense regardless. Given the lever arm length, body weight and some initial body weight shifting to nudge it (kind of like an impact blow), it wouldn't surprise me if effective torque on it approximates 1,000 foot pounds. My air gun wouldn't get there. Single highest torque thing on an Audi AFAIK.
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 03-02-2015 at 06:43 PM.