Maybe I'm back to the D5 wait, or D4 change in motor choice, or...Tesla :/
10-13-2014, 09:59 AM
#21
AudiWorld Super User
We in the US aren't communist Europe... yet... so we can all still chose for the time being without having the will of others foisted on us.
10-13-2014, 10:15 AM
#22
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
To be clear and specific to my post, you can't test drive an AWD one today
It's December delivery per the web site, so today is basically just a press release. We can test drive a RWD one (at a different power spec for the fast ones), but to me that's like test driving a CVT A6 FWD if I want and have a real world application for AWD and also want a different power/torque level, which I do in both cases.
As I started with, the Tesla is a possible contender in the somewhat out of box unique category. But electrics in true cold, low ride heights, and a 220 mile drive with 7200 feet of climb and such are perhaps not so practical for my application. Even in non-winter weather that climb is substantial---occurring over 50 miles and probably pretty much means you would want to stop at their supercharge station they put right by the freeway in the Roseville area. That's about ⅔ of the miles into my repeated trip, and just before the big mountain climb. In winter with any greater high cold load, it would be really dicey to try it headed without a recharge. On the way back being "downhill" a lot more manageable, and likewise I see the same in MPG runs with conventional gas both ways. To be clear, even on the W12, I can just make it complete round trip (both ways) a single tank of gas if I don't do any city diversions or get stuck in bumper to bumper). I could do the same on my prior 5 speed ZF A6 4.2 similar to a D2, but with a somewhat smaller tank.
The Tesla on paper may make the consideration cut, though its interior and some aspects of NVH really are not in the same league as a D3 let alone D4, even though price wise it is playing with D4's in other Euro luxe barges. The interior one can see test drive or not; the noise issue is effectively acknowledged in their newest release where they are "improving" it. But regardless, here in the upwardly mobile SV I have little doubt they will sell a boatload of them (part of my perspective back to the original post)--as are the trendy Euro guys with their now much later to the party than Audi AWD flavors. Frankly you hardly see a new D4, BMW 7 or even new design Merc S here these days, and the prior trendy Masarati and Panamera have done a pronounced fade. Being up in Tahoe a lot though, in winter it now typically comes down to the endless SUV's (pricy ones being more Bay Area), 4WD pick ups (more local), handfuls of Audis (both sedan/coupe and SUV type), Subies from the more cost conscious locals and younger crowd, and the occasional chained up car owned by someone who either has almost no AWD need or who can't afford something else. While the Tesla's are laughably commonplace/tendy here in SV/the Bay Area now, even in clear weather summer they are very rare up high in the Sierras; D3 A8's are literally as common, which of course is objectively a very low volume vehicle.
As I started with, the Tesla is a possible contender in the somewhat out of box unique category. But electrics in true cold, low ride heights, and a 220 mile drive with 7200 feet of climb and such are perhaps not so practical for my application. Even in non-winter weather that climb is substantial---occurring over 50 miles and probably pretty much means you would want to stop at their supercharge station they put right by the freeway in the Roseville area. That's about ⅔ of the miles into my repeated trip, and just before the big mountain climb. In winter with any greater high cold load, it would be really dicey to try it headed without a recharge. On the way back being "downhill" a lot more manageable, and likewise I see the same in MPG runs with conventional gas both ways. To be clear, even on the W12, I can just make it complete round trip (both ways) a single tank of gas if I don't do any city diversions or get stuck in bumper to bumper). I could do the same on my prior 5 speed ZF A6 4.2 similar to a D2, but with a somewhat smaller tank.
The Tesla on paper may make the consideration cut, though its interior and some aspects of NVH really are not in the same league as a D3 let alone D4, even though price wise it is playing with D4's in other Euro luxe barges. The interior one can see test drive or not; the noise issue is effectively acknowledged in their newest release where they are "improving" it. But regardless, here in the upwardly mobile SV I have little doubt they will sell a boatload of them (part of my perspective back to the original post)--as are the trendy Euro guys with their now much later to the party than Audi AWD flavors. Frankly you hardly see a new D4, BMW 7 or even new design Merc S here these days, and the prior trendy Masarati and Panamera have done a pronounced fade. Being up in Tahoe a lot though, in winter it now typically comes down to the endless SUV's (pricy ones being more Bay Area), 4WD pick ups (more local), handfuls of Audis (both sedan/coupe and SUV type), Subies from the more cost conscious locals and younger crowd, and the occasional chained up car owned by someone who either has almost no AWD need or who can't afford something else. While the Tesla's are laughably commonplace/tendy here in SV/the Bay Area now, even in clear weather summer they are very rare up high in the Sierras; D3 A8's are literally as common, which of course is objectively a very low volume vehicle.
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 10-13-2014 at 10:32 AM.
10-13-2014, 10:47 AM
#23
AudiWorld Super User
10-13-2014, 11:07 AM
#25
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
Pulling this back to Audi's and D4's BTW, if I went there I would be...
So, moving this back to the world of Audi's and not getting bogged down in the Tesla stuff, my real preference--as many here seem to also think--would be the 4.2 TDI. But, as we know it is unobtanium in North America. That is now a sub 5 second to 60 true AWD vehicle that has huge range, needs no particular asterisks for dealing with cold, etc. In general, the D4 (or 3) bodies are quite slippery too so these things have extraordinary range at decent speeds. "Nature calls" long before any refueling stop in the real world--several times over. Yes, we can get the 3.0TDI, but I would prefer the 4.2 power and torque range.
My guess is if the 4.2TDI or its successor ever even get here, it is more likely in a D5. Hence still that perhaps more likely default, and D5 is now within range if pre existing vehicle is reliable. Audi meantime is missing a differentiator at the D4 level relative to its German type competitors, and seems to not realize at least in its second and third biggest markets (SoCal and NorCal, after FL) it is kind of sucking wind comparatively relative to the Tesla play of late, plus the newer Merc S and the trend over to the 4 door coupe type styles. Another 4.2TDI alternate I suppose maybe the SQ5 pumped up 3.0TDI dropped into a D body if they ever go there, but again found only in non-U.S. markets for the Q5 series. Even on the S version of the Q5, they oddly shipped into North America a pumped up gas 3.0T.
Meantime on the D4, the available motor is the 3.0TDI for better or worse. And at that, the "older" somewhat lesser torque curve than the "newer" one now found in the Q5 and the A6. Another thing you have to look at carefully in the specs to catch. The Q7 is still on the "old" 3.0TDI too IIRC, though they moved the Cayenne cousin to the "new" one with their refresh from what I remember. Odd to me Audi couldn't be bothered on the D4 to get to their "current" TDI best std. 3.0 effort, and they obviously have already certified it in a bunch of other Audi's, let alone the Porsche. Indirectly, like with the now way long in the tooth Q7, maybe an odd sign they are already moving on to the next gen. (D5) mindset. Objectively still lots of torque though, a favorite of my W12 current ride. Both "older" and "newer" are well regarded, and few probably even know the difference.
So the other D4 motor that I can get turns out to be...the now 6.3L W12, and specifically the 2014+ rather than the first two years worth. The whys:
What I don't like about it are still the various not quite right things about the D4 like the compromised trunk, plus now being empty nester I would perhaps prefer a SWB that can't be had in a North America W12. On the other bookend, you also can't get there with the 3.0TDI either; also a North America LWB only play. On the other hand, I would probably get the 3 seat rear alternate next time for the occasional need for 5 people; odd today when we go to 5 on board, it's mandatorily the Q5, not the bigger W12 made for long distance performance cruising right in its sweet spot. At least D4 W12's can be found more commonly with the 5 seater build alternative than the D3 W12 from my occasional searches.
Meantime, largely depreciated D3 W12 just keeps humming along with lots of smiles and performance. I can pump a whole lot of gas every month--let alone potential 200K MORE life of car--relative to the humongous incremental depreciation of any of these from pure electric to power pig.
My guess is if the 4.2TDI or its successor ever even get here, it is more likely in a D5. Hence still that perhaps more likely default, and D5 is now within range if pre existing vehicle is reliable. Audi meantime is missing a differentiator at the D4 level relative to its German type competitors, and seems to not realize at least in its second and third biggest markets (SoCal and NorCal, after FL) it is kind of sucking wind comparatively relative to the Tesla play of late, plus the newer Merc S and the trend over to the 4 door coupe type styles. Another 4.2TDI alternate I suppose maybe the SQ5 pumped up 3.0TDI dropped into a D body if they ever go there, but again found only in non-U.S. markets for the Q5 series. Even on the S version of the Q5, they oddly shipped into North America a pumped up gas 3.0T.
Meantime on the D4, the available motor is the 3.0TDI for better or worse. And at that, the "older" somewhat lesser torque curve than the "newer" one now found in the Q5 and the A6. Another thing you have to look at carefully in the specs to catch. The Q7 is still on the "old" 3.0TDI too IIRC, though they moved the Cayenne cousin to the "new" one with their refresh from what I remember. Odd to me Audi couldn't be bothered on the D4 to get to their "current" TDI best std. 3.0 effort, and they obviously have already certified it in a bunch of other Audi's, let alone the Porsche. Indirectly, like with the now way long in the tooth Q7, maybe an odd sign they are already moving on to the next gen. (D5) mindset. Objectively still lots of torque though, a favorite of my W12 current ride. Both "older" and "newer" are well regarded, and few probably even know the difference.
So the other D4 motor that I can get turns out to be...the now 6.3L W12, and specifically the 2014+ rather than the first two years worth. The whys:
- Like the D3, the one sure way to start off with every D4 vehicle being basically loaded;
- Unlike the turbo (or supercharged) gas motor variants, no turbo lag or debates about an "on-off" sort of pedal feel, so a robust and super broad torque curve always available right now;
- While no longer at the top of the stop light to stoplight 0-60 stuff, come on...I already have more power than I need 99% of the time, so this is more about pride of ownership, uniqueness, fun factor etc, and anything at sub 5 seconds 100% of the time (especially with no boost lag questions for real world traffic) is unusually fast even in todays amp'ed up power across the board market;
- If I buy late model CPO/used again, someone else takes the first 30% plus of the depreciation bath but (for CPO) you get it warranted out to 100K and 6 years;
- If you play 2014 + you get cleaned up restyle and all the tweaks, plus buried on the W12 you get true alternating cylinder deactivation to make it a quasi 3.15L motor (with incremental drag and weight) when just lopingThe 4.0T has it now too, but on the W12 it does it evenly across all the cylinders off and on, so technically should spread the slower wear around too. Given the techno stuff in here though and the original GM 8-6-4 debacle of deactivation, obviously I will just keep watching for TSB's and other warning signs.
- As best I can decipher, several real world MPG's than my current D3 W12, which I can already tolerate MPG wise for the fun and luxury factor, but would prefer more like a C5 or D3 4.2 level of MPG's if I could pick.
- Still total obscurity, so the combination of uniqueness/sleeper but with standard D series parts, availability, fitment and pricing way different than "exotics," plus as a used vehicle now years into its run, a (tiny) market and "used" pricing shifting more clearly to the buyer.
What I don't like about it are still the various not quite right things about the D4 like the compromised trunk, plus now being empty nester I would perhaps prefer a SWB that can't be had in a North America W12. On the other bookend, you also can't get there with the 3.0TDI either; also a North America LWB only play. On the other hand, I would probably get the 3 seat rear alternate next time for the occasional need for 5 people; odd today when we go to 5 on board, it's mandatorily the Q5, not the bigger W12 made for long distance performance cruising right in its sweet spot. At least D4 W12's can be found more commonly with the 5 seater build alternative than the D3 W12 from my occasional searches.
Meantime, largely depreciated D3 W12 just keeps humming along with lots of smiles and performance. I can pump a whole lot of gas every month--let alone potential 200K MORE life of car--relative to the humongous incremental depreciation of any of these from pure electric to power pig.
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 10-13-2014 at 01:42 PM.
10-13-2014, 11:17 AM
#26
AudiWorld Super User
As you know from our previous conversations, I'd jump on that right this second.
Have you see some of the speculation on the new TDI motors here and here ?
The mere mention of the 5.0 V10 made the hair on my arms stand up
I'm kind of in the same boat.
Could hold for another year, get another D4, and be perfectly setup for the D5.
Or do I wait it out for the D5 ?
Just hate to let go of my 4.2 NA....
Have you see some of the speculation on the new TDI motors here and here ?
The mere mention of the 5.0 V10 made the hair on my arms stand up
I'm kind of in the same boat.
Could hold for another year, get another D4, and be perfectly setup for the D5.
Or do I wait it out for the D5 ?
Just hate to let go of my 4.2 NA....
10-13-2014, 12:13 PM
#27
AudiWorld Super User
Same here, but... That's old thinking. BMW already has 3 liter triple turbo Diesel making 381 HP. Loosing two of those turbos for electric motor spinning a big turbo before all exhaust is available will delete any lag. It can also charge some batteries preventing overboost, without loosing energy trough exhaust bypass.
So 4.0 TDI V8 (and later 3.0 TDI V6) with swapped cylinder heads (left to right) and electrically assisted big turbo inside that V would easily make 600 HP. Once perfected variable compression rate will further boost millage. And so on...
So 4.0 TDI V8 (and later 3.0 TDI V6) with swapped cylinder heads (left to right) and electrically assisted big turbo inside that V would easily make 600 HP. Once perfected variable compression rate will further boost millage. And so on...
10-13-2014, 01:31 PM
#28
AudiWorld Wiseguy
These newer gen turbo motors TDI and gas are great when new and in warranty, but they will not be our friends in 10 years time I'm fairly sure. Massively complex maintenance nightmares, especially the TDIs.
10-13-2014, 01:46 PM
#29
AudiWorld Super User
May be old, but safe.
These new contraptions are just problems waiting to happen with almost zero real world experience.
Everyone raved about the 4.0T D4... and then....
Time will tell, but I do trust Audi to do things properly; at least better than the rest.
Completely agree.
Precisely why I'll never have another Audi without a warranty (read: bought new)
I got damn luck with my D3 but I sleep at night owning a D4
These new contraptions are just problems waiting to happen with almost zero real world experience.
Everyone raved about the 4.0T D4... and then....
Time will tell, but I do trust Audi to do things properly; at least better than the rest.
Precisely why I'll never have another Audi without a warranty (read: bought new)
I got damn luck with my D3 but I sleep at night owning a D4
10-23-2014, 10:59 AM
#30
Audiworld Junior Member
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I test drove the Model S 85Kw sport with the air suspension and another 85 without it. Instead of buying the Model S, I ended up ordering a new A6 which arrived yesterday, and I will pick it up today after work. If I weren't wasting my time on Internet forums, I could go get it now...
I really liked the Tesla. I like that it's engineered and built in America, I like the exterior styling, how it is marketed and sold, and I respect Mr. Musk for what he has done and is doing with both Tesla and SpaceX. I found the performance, all that torque, all day long, intoxicating. I thought the regenerative braking was well done. I thought the road noise, wind noise, etc. were very acceptable. The handling was excellent for such a heavy car.
There were a lot of things about it that I didn't like. Where I live (NC) there aren't many supercharging stations yet, so a trip to the coast or to the mountains is not practical in this car. I don't like the ingress/egress out of the front seats, and the rear seats are even worse. The interior quality bits are not up to par for a $100K car. I don't like the big control screen that does everything. I like ***** for basic controls like HVAC, radio volume and presets, etc. I would prefer a slightly more compliant ride.
In a few more years after it has had more refinements, there are more charging stations and hopefully the price goes down a bit, I'll strongly consider a Tesla. Or if gas prices keep going up, I'll buy a tdi.
I really liked the Tesla. I like that it's engineered and built in America, I like the exterior styling, how it is marketed and sold, and I respect Mr. Musk for what he has done and is doing with both Tesla and SpaceX. I found the performance, all that torque, all day long, intoxicating. I thought the regenerative braking was well done. I thought the road noise, wind noise, etc. were very acceptable. The handling was excellent for such a heavy car.
There were a lot of things about it that I didn't like. Where I live (NC) there aren't many supercharging stations yet, so a trip to the coast or to the mountains is not practical in this car. I don't like the ingress/egress out of the front seats, and the rear seats are even worse. The interior quality bits are not up to par for a $100K car. I don't like the big control screen that does everything. I like ***** for basic controls like HVAC, radio volume and presets, etc. I would prefer a slightly more compliant ride.
In a few more years after it has had more refinements, there are more charging stations and hopefully the price goes down a bit, I'll strongly consider a Tesla. Or if gas prices keep going up, I'll buy a tdi.