tx170754

No disrespect for Tesla, never driven one but I've got into one in Chicago the interior looks
"cartoonish" when compared to the A8......

dvs_dave

It is odd that on this forum that there is such a dislike for the Tesla, and for seemingly pretty weak reasons. Such as the perceived typical owners, their driving abilities, the quality of the interior, (which is good for a US manufacturer), the size of the dash screen, etc.
It's a real suprise coming from Audi owners, especially A8 owners which is arguably the most "Audi" of all. The Tesla totally embodies the Audi mantra of "Vorsprung durch Technik".

So what is the root cause...afraid of the inevitable change its eschewing in?

MP4.2+6.0

I hung back figuring it might fade away, but you keep on with it as incremental replies seem to cut the other way again. So, see if this is just more "seemingly pretty weak reason[ing]" you critique with your own broad conclusory statements.

The average projected sale price is now apparently $105-109,000 per very recent reports; previously reported at around $100-103K. By $109K, that is essentially a current S8 price, not a typical A8 price even by older $100K math. That's damn expensive. +/-$109,000. Average. Damn. Expensive. On top of that, there are lots of your and my prior and current tax dollars going into this effectively, and it is a rich person's car at that.

This car--the Model S specifically--was supposed to be the one for the much bigger mass market after the high priced Roadster and was sold as that as part of the requests for handouts. Rewind to the then contemporaneous statements, and you'll find talk (and selling/positioning) toward more like a conventional six cylinder 5 series. It is no such thing, not by a country mile. $109,000. Now they sing the same song for the next sedan (Model 3), and the stories/analysts are already saying it isn't going to be $30 or $40 K, but more like $50 or $60K. One Tesla Analyst Lowers Volume Estimates While Another Sees Opportunity - Forbes Or (somewhat deep into the article), Tesla Stock Price Sliding Due to Low Gas Prices | TheDetroitBureau.com In normal markets--putting aside the government hand outs--this is riding down and skimming the price curve. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...

Get on the site and price out the still to be shipped and apparently already delayed AWD (D); that's the comparo to the D4. It gets up into a very loaded S8 price. Nicely done exterior overall, but not in the same league as a D4 or even (toys aside) arguably against a prior gen D3 in newer condition. Again, nothing remotely like a "common man" vehicle either. The Leaf is that; not the Tesla at all. Back with S8's or A8's, AWD is a given on our rides and has been from their dawn with the Audi 100 (A6) based D1.

Per my original post, in plain English I think that car had absolutely no business being in the winter mountain environment it was, no more than a C7 Corvette of any flavor in the snow on slopes. Here mediocre tires, 2WD, inherent torque behavior that isn't right for snow and ice if not properly dialed back with good drivetrain programming and aids, etc. And in a different world, the Corvette is a great car too, and indeed I have considered buying one as well. And BTW, also way different price point/bang for buck than Tesla. But, not for winter Tahoe, that's for damn sure. Having completed the trip, this was the only vehicle I saw in a ditch, let alone generally stuck. And I saw lots of ordinary 2WD's, and in clear weather even a couple of Porsche sports car rides (not SUV's). Not sure the 911(one of them) was a 4 or not since both were going the other way. But, the drivers were more sensible, being out in clear weather. On the preceding trip--skipping the semi rig idiots who got stuck side by side on an I-80 upslope with no chains in a mandated chain/AWD area and had to literally be plowed out by CalTrans; thank you WalMart for one of them.--the only two issues I remember were a 20 year old 2WD domestic pickup with no chains (where I also stopped to ask if he needed help after he spun out on deserted I-80) and the lowly late 80's Taurus (I used to own one) that struggled but made it up the same Tesla DNF hill with some weather and crap on the road at night who was just in front of me. Some wheel spin and slower pace, but no electronic nannies and no chains with simple first gen Ford FWD.

I also filled up after days of errands with another 150 local miles after the drive up from the Bay Area, that with the biggest drinker W12 motor and still a few gallons left in the tank. FWIW, I can actually just barely round trip it both ways in the W12, and also could in my prior A6 4.2 with the 21 gallon tank, if I don't do any other local trips. Took me maybe 8-10 minutes at Chevron, one of two picks just at that freeway onramp. Realistically, for a Tesla Model S to make it reliably one way the 200-220 miles from much of the the Bay Area, it pretty much has to stop at the Roseville Supercharger facility. That's at least half an hour. Either that or nerves of steel fighting range anxiety as you climb to 7200 feet over 50 plus miles (my MPG's are about 20% worse up and 20% better down), putting aside the greater power use with the heater, defrosters, heated seats, etc. Or, what if you get stuck behind the stuck big rigs like I did 3 weeks ago for an hour?--before I got to the next off ramp BTW and quatro'ed off unremarkably to two entrances ahead 6 or 8 miles. To Tesla's credit, the AWD D version may solve this practical Sierra issue better, since range is spec'ed to improve because of the nature of the drivetrain set up. But there is no Supercharger station until probably Reno again, so you better have a home to plug into, or wait a real long time at 120V with literally an extension cord.

Meanwhile having dealt with 2WD's (today's S) in conditions like these let alone far worse, a regular sedan should be able to deal with these with chains--including simple cables--not slid off the side of an ordinary suburban arterial to a big subdivision in a mountain town on a pretty constant slope about ⅓ of the way up. Yes, in my opinion the driver was perhaps a fool or totally inexperienced or who knows what, but where are the electronic nannies that are virtually standard these days on mid and higher class cars? On a modern vehicle at even a mid price point, you would expect throttle intervention systems and some kind of brake based intervention to make up for lack of limited slip. Audis call that EBD after it offed mechanical diff intervention and lock up at the two ends by the mid 90's. I fully expect this kind of stuff on any vehicle that sells for anything like these do, but this scenario sure raises questions in my mind of the competence of that kind of stuff. To me these things should be "well duh," not questions.

To the post about complaining about known D3 weak spots, first it is not a valid comparison. The comparison is a D4 10 up to 10 years newer and a whole generation later and with current manufacturer warranty coverage, not the D3. The D3 was sold when the Roadster was sold, and the D3 was introduced well before it and not as a quasi kit car from an Elise.

But beyond that, let's touch on a few. Tesla's are already known as having lots of issues with the pop out/motorized door handles, to use the MMI analogy. That is arguably one of their two big "gimmicks", along with the ginormous screen. For the D3 (and 4), it's the motorized MMI, and for the ones with B&O's, the speakers. For a Jag XJ, it's now the rising shifter ****, and so on. Well, D3 motorized MMI's were not breaking much under warranty (I was here for that), let alone in fairly large number. Word is also the battery packs have some issues (beyond normal low automotive levels) but I would need to poke more. Then there is the road noise. The road noise on a Tesla is not particularly quiet at highway type speeds by current luxury standards. I would put it more back about my C5 4.2, and that was an issue I had with that car too. My D3 is quiet like no tomorrow by comparison. Tesla just recently said they made a running improvement for interior quiet; or said another way they realized/admitted somehow they had an issue mid generation, whether they already knew it or the customers were telling them that. Well again, in D series cars, the Audi was at this level at or before the D2, let alone a now last generation D3 or the current D4. They did more noise insulating with the D3 facelift too, but pre facelift they were already regarded as quiet. Then there is the oddity that even with an air suspension, if you ever notice Tesla's at night (we have lots), they seem commonly to suffer the jiggly headlight syndrome. And when you see them by day, same thing if you watch the fine body movement. Kind of like your poorly modded fancy ride with the not quite tuned right suspension and/or the too low profile tires for the way the car is dialed in. And regardless of ride, in this price class you don't expect jiggly HID type stuff. And oops, BTW where are those D4 now-LED ones? I didn't have that jiggling look even on my first HID 2000 A6 4.2 with 40 Series and conventional street springs, and even my very stiff last (second) gen Mini S with sport suspension does it no worse than a Tesla either inside or when I encounter Mini's with HID's on the road. But that is at ⅓ the price point. Art in Engineering/Vorsprung durch Technik, etc. gets this stuff right. Sometimes it has reliability issues, but the original execution is class leading.

Then there are the owners. Where I am in the midst of Silicon Valley, these things are a dime a dozen. This is a humongous market for them. For example the report that 21% of ALL new vehicle registrations in Atherton (one of the top few DMA zip codes in the country) were Tesla's. That's off the charts; and yes meanwhile around here sales of big Mercs', BMW's and Audi's all are kind of sucking wind, as they have been for quite a while now on the LS. From having watched the fad phases with various cars, they seem caught up in that. Well, fads pass, as they did with the prior fad mobiles here like the Quattroporte and the Panamera (notice the body similarity), or for other buyers, the GL and once upon a time the XC90 and the Q7 and Range Rover. That's all sort of fine actually; I just kind of laugh as I see depreciation money poured down toilets constantly. Also risky for Tesla to have built a business on, and you can see part of their continued expansion is actually a necessary as original markets decay. I have an expensive D3 (bought CPO), but then I have now had it 7 ½ years and closing on 100K miles. I or family will run well past double that. Recent Tesla buyers are apparently also whining that they weren't told of the imminent announcement of AWD, or of the improved electronics. Oh, and those electronics include...finally...adaptive cruise as I recall. Again, getting common now as an option even on mid priced appliance mobiles (think even Hyundai), and available almost 10 years ago on last generation D3's.

The owners here also want commonly to make the green statement. And so does my wife in part with her Q5 Hybrid, though she also very much likes the car, the mileage point, etc. Well trouble in this arena is that for most of the country all electric is not the best green choice for the generation of power plants that will be around much of our lives still. The University of Minn. study just out confirms that for anywhere coal fired is the primary electric source, electric cars are actually among the relatively dirty crowd because of where the power originates. Either Hybrids or modern diesels are meaningfully better, or even conventional gasoline. Here's a link on just one article about it. Electric Cars a Mixed Bag For Health, Climate | Climate Central I picked it only from easy Googling, not for a particular spin. Other press I have seen on the study reads similarly. Here in much of CA with no coal, (expensive) solar, hydro, wind and a backbone of natural gas, it computes, but not in much of the country with coal where we get about half our electric power. (The incident BTW was in Truckee, which actually pulls its power from east of the Sierras and ultimately currently means Utah, which currently means...coal). Conversion even to natural gas fired plants changes this metric, but that takes a lot of time, new capital and many big political fights.

Then the drivers, too early to tell but this one may be headed the wrong direction. Lots of very tame drivers around here with Teslas, whether the classic new car buyer similar to an S8/A8 or other Euro luxo barge or feel younger faux coupe style crowd like the CLS, A/S 7, etc., or the rich soccer mom stereotypes or what ever. But, I'm also starting to notice more than a few of the Top Gear a%$%*&@ nominee group. Your basic Type A occasional clown driver, virtually always male and usually a fair amount younger than other new luxo barge rides. Any car demographic can be beset by that, but among Audi's, as far as I know Clarkson and crew have only nominated the S4 on air. Of course ones like the M3 are notorious. I've seen two real clown situations in recent months with Tesla's (one right literally in front of the one of the two main Tesla plant freeway on ramps in Fremont). I have literally never seen one with any of a CLS, any A8/S8, A7/S7/RS7, modern XJ Jag, etc. No, Tesla can't tame that, but getting your car thought of in any sort of light like that isn't good.

Having said all this, yes it may make my own list, but probably not until next gen. and only in AWD. Has to pass the "Tahoe" test, as all the Europeans have already figured out--well after Audi--as of at least a few years ago. And some of my own personal sentiment in favor is also honestly all the dole stuff--carpool stickers, give away electricity charging, tax credits, a PG&E rate system you can skim even more if you have an electric car, etc. Welcome to capitalism, but as an American I also lament that in this case so much of this is really stacked toward not just a well heeled buyer, but truly rich ones. $109,000. I support green, but this is an unfortunate economic skewing. Last, I do think Tesla is good for competition in other ways, and the German companies need a kick in the pants. Indeed I have posted exactly that, referencing Tesla specifically in the context of D4 misgivings. But, the Germans have been pandering perhaps too much to the growing China market to notice these US trends sufficiently. Still, in their own political and home market front yards they are very much dealing with all of green, renewables, Umwelt Zones that may effectively come to mandate zero emissions capable running, climate change, tough mandated CO2 standards and the like. Yet, in there my instinct suggests plug in hybrid, maybe with electric motor feed for the AWD component a la Lexus RX or current Acura, maybe driven by a TDI, is more likely how they thread the needle and what takes off broadly in the marketplace and with much less stratospheric price points for volume production.

mishar

No, no. Just afraid of any type of revolution.

jakematic

What I can't figure out is why you haven't abandoned Audi and bought 5 Tesla's

If people go to any forum for any vehicle and rant on and on about how great something else is and you'll find a similar reaction.
Add to that all the exact points MP stated, and it becomes harder to make a case.

dvs_dave

I would buy Tesla P85D if I could afford it. But no ranting coming from me about it.

Folks should look around once in a while. There's lots to see!

Panelhead

At least in Houston, Tesla sightings are daily. See another d-2,D-3, or D-4 about once a month.
But the Tesla maybe DD'ers and the Audi's weekenders. I see a S8 D-4 at my office about once every three months.

TurboA6

Teslas can't be too awful in snow. They're the most popular car in Norway and Norway's snowfall makes California's a cake walk. They're the highest-quality American car on the market (not saying much, sadly), and, if you want to go by the whole "they don't even have this, and Audi had it X years ago," one could argue that Tesla is a brand new company, Audi is not. Lexus is barely 25 years old and got it right from day one. Audi did not. I wouldn't argue that, because I hate Lexus (most other Asian car makes) with the passion of a thousand nuns. My only gripe with the Tesla is...a $100K+ car and you can't even put a friggin' arm rest in the back seat?

That being said, my heart belongs to Germany. Tesla may be a wonderful car, but I will always have a big flagship Krautwagen in my garage.

mishar

As I said, it is worst than I thought. That motor is way to small for 400+ HP. This is what happens to a number of new cars:

Green Car Report

A Tesla Motor Club poll of 87 Model S owners revealed that a startling 28 of them had had their drive units replaced, a rate of 32 percent. Five of them (6 percent) had had multiple replacements.

(We should note that due to the poll's built-in selection bias, that percentage of drive-unit replacements is probably not representative of the larger Model S population.)

On Tesla's own website forum, dozens of owners weighed in with their tales of drive unit woes.

"Every car in my area has had at least one DU replaced," noted one. "I'm on my fifth drivetrain at 12,000 miles," reported another.


Average age of our A8/S8's is probably eight years and I believe none of them had ever replaced engine or transmission parts. Most of us already replaced batteries. Now think about seven years old Tesla S.

MP4.2+6.0

Not hard to find the answer. First Google hit of a boatload:

Tax Exemptions in Norway Cut Tesla Model S Price in Half | Inside EVs

Again, I'm a fan of clean tech and have been active in the general field. But, coming to rely on a market based on tax subsidies is a fools' game. Ask Spain or some others now floundering in the wake of their unsustainable policies in solar as another modern example. California's erratic policies on solar arguably set clean energy development back by decades when the write off music stopped on the 55% tax credit the state offered (separate from the Feds) in the later 1970's. The underlying market had not developed competitively but rather as a creature of tax policy. Led to a crash and burn when the tax distortion was removed and the 70's oil shocks waned; few companies in the biz survived that boom and bust.