Farmjazz

Greetings. Posted on here several days ago that wife with our 2004 A8 had problem. Trailered car to Audi dealer yesterday, just talked to service man for update. Was not a failure of timing belt, it was okay. Code showed misfire. So, Volkswagen shop that diagnosed timing problem was wrong. Wife talked to them (Volkswagen shop mgr), expecting refund for incorrect diagnoses. Fellow there didn't think so, cause mechanic there crawled under and got his hand on the timing belt, and it seemed loose to him. Good grief. We figured they had hooked a computer to the car to diagnose. Deal with that nonsense later.

At Audi dealer, showed misfire. Replaced coils, car runs smoothly. Smokes a bunch, but they think because still extra gas in engine that hasn't flushed out yet. BUT.......they also detected a rattling/rubbing on the backside of the engine. Detected at startup, absent for 15-20 seconds, then noticeable again. So, seems fair to me to call it intermittent. They suspect it might be problem with flex plate, which, from his description, sounds like what used to be called a ring gear. But here, sounds like teeth are riveted on, and could be loose rivet is the culprit. To pursue investigating, he thinks removing the starter and visually inspecting could be next step, will call me back with recommendations and prices.

This is where I'm unsure what is prudent to pursue and solve, and what is simply throwing money at guessing. His estimate at cost to remove starter and inspect would be $430. I'm unsure how to know if the sound indicates impending doom, or innocuous.

Sorry for length, but want to try to be fairly thorough in giving information. Any comments on rattling/rubbing are welcome.

Thank you,
Steve

Jack88

I don't know anything about your symptoms, but I'm glad to hear your engine didn't implode itself afterall. That the mechanic who initially diagnosed used "it felt loose" as the basis of his diagnoses is ridiculous.

Farmjazz

Maybe it goes away, maybe not, but first I would have the basic running smoothly stuff in order first --as long as starter functioning reliably that is.


I appreciate the replies. Your suggestion of getting the car on the road and blowing its nose makes a lot of sense to me. It does seem a bit premature to explore further problems (especially not detected previously) with the car still showing effects of misfiring problem. That is, exhausting smoke that isn't normally there. There is no problem with the starter, the service guy proposed removing the starter just to have visual inspection port.

Kind of at the mercy of the service department's best suggestion. Wife is 250 miles from the car, I'm twice as far away.

mishar

I hope they replaced spark plugs when they where already there. Other than that only catalytic converters can suffer from unburned fuel. That's where the smoke is coming from. In a more severe case they can be permanently damaged. Happens when an injector get stuck opened. So that will go away soon.

Rattling wise, depending on severity it may on may not be urgent. Removing starter is the only way to get very limited access, basically just to the converter bolts. I don't know if they suspect them to be loose. I really doubt that. Other than that they won't be able to see much. Besides that it may be starter itself. That would be the best case if there actually is a case. Being at the mercy of the (Audi) service department's best suggestion is never good.

Farmjazz

Finally got to talk to service guy this morning, they haven't done a thing since earlier yesterday. Rubbing/rattling noise they feel is significant, it needs attention. They will look through small hole on underside of bell housing to see if they can determine problem. Then, the car will sit until tomorrow. Even removing the starter, if that is needed, would wait till tomorrow.

Tough being patient when I checked their work load ahead of time. Told them that my wife is over 500 miles from home, I wanted to know if the car was trailered to them, would they make it a priority. Would they be able to get on it, and see it through until it was fixed. I was assured their work load was manageable enough they would be able to get right on it. Now that it is there, I'm told there were other cars in ahead of me, that have more priority for them to fix.

Sure has me appreciating individuals who have the integrity to follow through on what they say.

Without evidence, they are now suspicious that torque converter might be in peril.

MP4.2+6.0

I don't think you have said where the car is, which makes it harder to respond in context. Anyway, I guess you need to let them get you more specific diagnostic answers. But, I'm skeptical w/ the delays, shifting info, etc. BTW, unfortunately when they do loaners and Audi reimbursed maintenance work and new car deliveries, their incentives get skewed. Harder when you don't have a regular customer relationship to draw on.

In any case if the car is in a major metro area or even a mid sized city, and the answer comes back suggesting big bucks mechanical or tranny work, consider strongly getting it to a qualified indy shop or a tranny specific shop with a track record of doing ZF and/or quattro specific work. A hassle from a long distance, but if you can establish a personal connection and work a tow or pick up or something to a pretty nearby qualified shop, it could well be worth it. If the answer isn't crisp, a second opinion would be good, plus you might take a whole bunch of cost out if it is remove and install tranny type issue that is serious.

Farmjazz

Called back late afternoon for update, service guy I've been dealing with was gone for the day. I'd specifically asked for an update after they tried inspecting through bottom of bell housing. Got service manager on, and finally feel like there is going to be forward motion.

Tried looking through very small hole in bell housing, didn't gain anything. Going to remove starter in morning, 4 hour job. Hope to be able to see problem through that port. I certainly do dread what is to come, but feel kind of lost pursuing other avenues. I appreciate comments of searching out other shops, if someone is in the area of Ft. Collins or Boulder, sure am open to suggestions. Specifically, following up on MP4.2+6.0's comments: If it comes back that the problem is with rivets in flex plate, or torque converter problem, being miles away........ I sure do feel a bit lost trying to ferret out a shop that will do excellent work at what I expect would be much more fair compensation than Audi charges.

But, think they said removing transmission is 14 hour job. Car really is a dandy (except for this problem), about 80,000 miles on it. But, I think it is valued around $10,000 or so. Good gosh.

Well, I'll update with any more info tomorrow, and again thank you for comments and help.

Farmjazz

I actually did unearth a couple of shops that have qualified Audi mechanics: Scott's Fort Collins Auto, and European Motor Cars. Both are in the neighborhood of $100/hour shop labor, and both feel qualified to work on this car. So, will expect to get update from Audi dealer tomorrow noon, see if they have problem figured out or not. Audi dealer said pulling back transmission would be 14 hour job, so interested to find out what their hourly rate is, to compare against the independents. One shop said they currently have customers that used to go to the Audi dealership for maintenance, but felt they pushed for work that was beyond necessary. One shop has 2 year warranty on their work, parts and labor. But, since I'm over 500 miles away, doubtful how much value that warranty would have for me (expense of getting car back to them if there was a failure).

MP4.2+6.0

Once you know more (or even now), if it sounds tranny or tranny removal related, try:

1. Both searching historically and a post asking for leads on the relevant regional boards both here and on QuattroWorld. For my area at least (SF Bay Area), QW is now the more active.
2. Go at it from the ZF side. ZF has lists of authorized shops, on line as I recall. Also do a web search tied to your area.
3. Do some web searches: "ZF" and "transmission" and "repair" or "rebuild"/"rebuilt" and "Fort Collins", etc. Try any of Audi, BMW and Jaguar (favoring Audi given quattro), since all three used the tranny in volume in cars shipped here.

When I got my 5 speed rebuilt, I started with ZF's list for local ones. I pretty much knew it was headed for a rebuilt and was probably internally blown. Called a couple. Didn't seem to know much about Audis (chain type ones that were a lot of the Bay Area list), but I asked two or three times if they had any recommendations for who did. That got me a lead, which a simple Google tended to validate, then a phone call told me in my own mind the shop owner+manager was on top of it in general. That is he seemed to have some working familiarity with specifics of the relevant tranny even over the phone and could give me some ballparks depending on what the final job was. As soon as I got there I could see a service lot with Audis, trannies on the bench being serviced internally, etc. Mine ended up being shipped to ZF for rebuild (they had no cores at ZF for it). The shop was simply "Mike's Transmissions" in a strip row of repair shops I had never known was even there before, demonstrating how you can't just go by a name, place or old yellow pages or newer web and have a good sense.

MP4.2+6.0

So, this is good for other options. Usually I have found shops will give you a quote for a tranny R&R (remove and replace) since either they have experience and/or it is in a shop flat rate manual, plus it's a std. thing they need to quote as part of a rebuilt tranny job when it comes to that. My rebuilt ZF tranny on the 5 speed was warranted (unlimited miles I think for 2 years), but I had zero issues with it thereafter. If you get in that deep in some horror scenario, then even long tows/shipments can make sense if the worst happens again. Fortunately, these are pretty reliable vehicles in the drivetrain as long as you use quality parts and the person repairing knows what they are doing.