motegi

As a relative newbie to the forum I've only owned my D4 A8L since May. The Audi A8 was a car that I had long admired from riding in friends' cars and seeing them at various auto shows. I truly thought the A8L was going to be a great daily driver for me and was fully expecting to own it for the long term. I even joined the Audi Club of North America much like I have joined the car clubs of the other vehicles that I've owned. Mechanical service manuals, VAG-COM cable, radar detector mount, shirts, hats, posters, all-weather floor mats and everything I always order for my cars I also picked up for the Audi. I really wanted this to be THE car.

Unfortunately the ownership experience with this car has been far less than stellar with a myriad of electrical and mechanical issues plaguing the car since almost day one. They include an Air Suspension System Fault, replacement tie rods and bushings for creaks and groans, complete MMI screen blackout on two separate occasions, two new sensors for recurrent Check Engine lights, intermittent Side Assist and Adaptive Cruise Control, intermittent Steering Wheel Easy Entry, defective interior trim, and many more. Even though everything has been covered under the warranty, these issues have taken me to three separate dealer service departments, multiple calls with Audi Customer Care, and has greatly impacted my life in terms of the time I've had to spend to sort these things out. More recently my A8L has been spending more time at the dealer than in my garage. In less than 8 months I've come to the conclusion that I need to start to look for an alternative. Until this point I have never owned a car for anywhere under 4 years and even have a few cars in my garage that I've had for more than 10. As it stands, this Audi will sadly not be one of them.

Today my wife and I had a scheduled test drive in the Tesla P85D dual motor all-wheel drive Model S at a local Tesla Design location. Holy crap was it incredible! I knew from the online reviews that the car has a 0-60 acceleration of 3.2 seconds but the way that the electric motor power is applied took me by complete surprise.

The nearest Tesla Design store location is in an industrial area tucked inside an office complex and has a nice isolated open stretch of road one one side. The showroom is very simple and looks like a small office rather than a car dealership. There is no large lighted sign out front nor rows of new and preowned cars lined up in front. In fact there were only two Teslas parked in front and nothing else. It was nothing like a "car dealership" at all. As soon as you walk through the front door there is a glass wall behind a small desk where one can see the service area containing perhaps 6 vehicle service bays. There were three Model S in for service/updates today. To my surprise, there were no cars in the "showroom" itself nor any space to even accommodate one. There was just a table with a large iMac for configuring your car to be ordered and a wall with a flatscreen and color samples for the interior and exterior choices. There were a couple of chairs that made up the service waiting area and some shelves of Tesla shirts and hats. I spoke with one gentleman who was waiting for a Tesla Accessory center console to be installed in his Model S. He said said that his Model S had replaced a long line of BMWs and Mercedes with zero regrets and really felt the Model S was far superior in every way. He even took me out to see his car after it was ready.

During our brief time in the store there were a steady stream of customers coming in to take delivery of their new Teslas. Many were upgrading from an earlier model to the newest P85D. There was a small keypad access door that opened into a large warehouse on the side where at least a dozen brand new Model S were awaiting delivery to their owners. This room was great way to check out a variety of exterior, interior, and wheel combinations in person.

Our salesman was very enthusiastic, young, informative, and genuinely excited with the Model S and the P85D in particular. As I had specifically scheduled for a P85D test drive, he had one already charged and waiting for us in front. At the car, we got a 20 minute walk through of the features, discussion of electric range/charging, infotainment, and telematics systems before the test drive. We learned that you don't need to have the key fob to drive this car. The password controlled smartphone app alone is all that you need. Through the app you also have remote wireless control of many of the cars features and telematics.

Immediately as we turned out of the parking lot the salesman asked me to come to a complete stop with the car pointed straight down the open stretch of road. He then urged me to floor the accelerator. The car was already in "Insane" mode and there were no other settings or launch control procedures to perform. "Just gun it!" he exclaimed emphatically. So that's exactly what I did. The sheer instantaneous force of acceleration took both me and my wife by surprise even though we both knew it was coming. It snapped our heads back into the headrests so quickly that I had to refocus my eyes back down to the road. In just a fraction over 3 seconds were were at 60 MPH. And yet, the car maintained complete composure with only a faint electric motor whine and zero wheel spin from any of the 21 inch tires. No gear changes, no engine roar, no drama. When driven in town it was extremely quiet and handled quite well with great steering weighting and good body control. Even with the largest wheels and the optional air suspension set to the lowest setting the Model S was surprisingly much smoother riding than my A8L in comfort mode. My wife was so happy with the ride quality that it was one of the first things she commented on when we finished the test drive.

In comparison with my well equipped V8 A8L, the P85D fully optioned would list almost $25k higher. For this, it is a vastly quicker car (quickest production sedan gas or otherwise) with minimal maintenance costs. There is no internal combustion engine so there is no need for oil changes nor most of the things that one expects as being synonymous with motor vehicle ownership. The only fluid that this car consumes is windshield washer fluid. Even the brake pads on the Model S will last much longer owing to the fact that as soon as one lets off of the accelerator the automatic energy regeneration system takes over to the point where actual brake use is minimal.

The interiors are vastly different in design approach between the two cars with the P85D being almost completely devoid of physical buttons on the dash except for a hazard light button and the glove box release switch. All of the car systems, HVAC, audio, telematics, etc are controlled through the giant 17" touchscreen in the center of the dash. The touchscreen is very bright, legible, and extremely responsive. What is absent is any center floor console whatsoever with more of a flat tray like one would expect in something like a minivan instead. The shifter is a stalk attached to the right side of the steering column. There is no "start button" nor any gears to select as there is no traditional transmission. You simply get in and go. The cupholders and a small storage compartment is contained within the center armrests. Of course there are, as mentioned earlier, dealer installed traditional center console units available with more cupholders, storage pockets, and trays for cell phones, etc. The main gauge cluster is entirely digital with a large LCD screen and virtual speedometer in the center with user configurable information displays on either side. There are some programmable scroll wheels and buttons on the steering wheel to control the gauge cluster display.

Admittedly even with the optional upgraded interior package on the Model S the interior finishes on the door panels, etc are nowhere near as luxurious as the A8. I think this is the weakest point of the Model S design. I sat in both the Model S with the upgraded performance seats and the standard seats which have 12 way power adjustment and heat but do not hold a candle to the A8's almost infinitely adjustable and massaging thrones. The Model S has no option for front seat ventilation/cooling at any trim level. The rear view mirror and the ceiling visors seemed flimsy and low quality. While there is an optional panoramic sunroof there are no rear privacy shades nor any center armrest or cupholders for the rear passengers. The rear AC did not appear to be independently adjustable and the rear legroom was definitely smaller than the cavernous A8L. One advantage of the Model S over the A8 is that a rear center passenger gets a full headrest as well as generous side bolstering and a flat rear footwell making it truly a comfortable and useable passenger location.

Just as an aside for any watch collectors who are reading this, the space between the door panel and the lower seat cushion on the Model S is narrow and prevented me from being able to reach my left hand down to adjust the seat controls with my dive watch on my wrist. I had to take my watch off to do this. First world problems... I know. But it was an annoyance nonetheless as I don't go anywhere without a watch on and the stock Model S doesn't have a center console where I can easily set the watch down.

The standard audio system in the Model S only has 6 speakers and no subwoofer and while adequate for low level background music will not impress anyone. Seriously I don't see how this is even a reasonable basic sound system. There is an upgraded system available with 12 speakers and an 8 inch woofer that sounds better and would be more on-par with the base Bose audio system on the A8L.

Thanks to the electric powertrain and "hatchback" style design the Model S gets both a decent sized front trunk roomy enough for a small duffle bag or several grocery bags as well as an enormous rear trunk. The rear seats also fold flat to allow it to easily be as accommodating as a small SUV. There is even enough space back there that they offer an optional rear facing third row pair of seats! There is also a large hidden rectangular storage area under the rear trunk floor that is almost as large as the front trunk. The overall cargo volume of the P85D is vastly superior to the A8L where loading my golf bag for an outing can be a chore and always requires some pre-planning.

A huge advantage of the Model S is the constant stream of free updates that Tesla provides to the owners via over the air software upgrades. Over time things like their autopilot features will be pushed as software updates into the cars at no charge. In this way the Tesla is more like an iPhone than a traditional car. Tesla doesn't seem to treat their cars like other brands with incremental updates being reserved for subsequent model years. The updates are instead transmitted to the Model S' via the built in 3G wireless connection or via WiFi while it is parked in your garage overnight. So the differences in the cars are less by model year and more by the battery capacity and hardware packages. Again, this is quite different from what most of us are used to.

I know that for many people the idea of a fully electric powered car and the inherent "range anxiety" is a big roadblock and it's honestly still what has me on the fence. My daily commute is only about 50 miles per day and I am lucky enough to have a Tesla Supercharger station only 10 minutes away where electric charging would be free for life. The Tesla Supercharger can replenish up to 170 miles of range in just 30 minutes. Conveniently, the Supercharger happens to be right along my daily commute and strategically situated next to a Starbucks as well. However, I get called out at night multiple times a week which could impact at home charging and the wife and I like to take short trips to surrounding areas on the weekends where range could be an issue.

Tesla Service is only about 20 minutes away and they will provide free valet pick up/drop off service with Tesla loaners for any warranty repairs. Right now the Audi dealer that I have been using is 1 hour away. There are two Audi dealers that are closer but my experience with them has not been good. The Audi dealer does provide valet pickup/dropoff for now but I'm not sure how long that will continue considering how far away I live.

I am fortunate to own several other traditional gasoline engine cars as well so I would never be without a car just because my battery needs to be charged. Luckily our local electricity costs are relatively cheap at under 7 cents per kilowatt hour meaning that home charging for daily use would cost less than $1 per day and under 1 hour with the 80 amp charger option.

So overall I was thoroughly impressed with the Tesla Model S P85D from a sheer performance, interior comfort, and ride quality standpoint. The cost of ownership should be low considering the vastly reduced energy/fuel costs and minimal maintenance requirements. While I never considered owning a non-combustion engine vehicle before this test drive has really opened my eyes to what is possible.

While I'm sad to say it, I suppose that I need to thank my problematic A8L for pushing me to explore what else is out there. I still have some other cars to check out before I make a decision but the Tesla P85D is now solidly at the top of my list.

Kkirkg

A very thoughtful comparison. It will be interesting to observe how well Teslas age as they accumulate higher mileage.(Which will probably be at a slower rate due to their limited rage). The thought of having to replace the batteries when the car is out of warranty sends shivers through my bank account.

I never had the opportunity to drive a Tesla, but I did drive a Chevy Cruze. I can attest that the acceleration and performance of an electric car is phenomenal. The Cruze did have a 'heavy' feel to it from the weight of the batteries.

HouTexAudi

Great write up! You touched on every one of my questions and concerns about the Tesla P85D. Disappointing to read about the lower quality interior and the fact that active ventilated front seats are not available--that might just be a deal killer for me here in hot Houston. As much as they hit the nail on the head on performance and exterior design, it's a shame that they did not give the interior more thought.

Definitely need to go for a test ride in one though.

mishar

You may want to check this before you replace your A8. By the way you had more problems than everybody else combined. Included D3 forum.

motegi

Thanks for the heads up.

I actually read about that issue in depth. The issue with the drive system is mainly attributed to the low VIN number vehicles. Essentially the first production run of the factory. The Edmunds car is always mentioned in blogs as requiring 4 replacements but the third unit was actually found to have a defective/broken connector at the time of installation at the service center and therefore was not an in-use failure of the part itself. The service center ordered another drive unit and had it installed before they gave the car back to Edmunds. Also being a test vehicle for the Edmunds journalists that car in particular was likely subject to a more aggressive driving pattern.

Most of those who underwent replacement were not due to a complete failure but rather what was essentially a change in the sound of the drive unit. Regardless Tesla has taken the stance of replacing them if the owner requests it to be done. The drive unit exchanges are completed in 24 hours and at no charge to the owners who are provided with valet drop off/pick up loaner service. The estimated cost for this was $15,000 per unit. There has been speculation that the source of the problem may have been related to a faulty engine mount design resulting in excess vibration in drive unit that affected the bearings. Apparently many of the affected vehicles had broken engine mounts and a revised mount design has been developed.

This is in stark contrast to my experience so far with Audi that is like pulling teeth and requires multiple service visits just to have something like a suspension bushing changed under warranty. Even the check engine light indicating a cam position sensor failure required two visits (one hour drive each direction). And then only to have a second check engine light and an O2 sensor fail a week later! If Audi were to follow Tesla's example in this case I would have had a new V8 and transmission replacement each time and had the car back in 24 hours! Audi would then have taken the engine/transmission assembly back to Germany to investigate and replace the sensors. Instead the local dealer service dept had my A8 for about 5-10 days each time while they diagnosed the problems and added miles onto the car as they tried to repeat the error codes.

As for why Tesla chose to replace the entire motor assembly rather than try to open it up and replace the parts involved apparently this was the easier and faster technique in the field. All of the removed units were sent back to California where they were disassembled and inspected. I believe that many of them were repaired/refurbished and then used as warranty replacements.

The owners that I have spoken to with later production vehicles have not had the issues of the early adopters. The vehicles that I saw at my local Tesla Design center all had VIN numbers in the 60,000+ range.

But indeed Tesla is a very new automobile company producing a very unconventional vehicle so some issues are sure to arise along the way. The way that they are addressing these issues with frequent software updates and preemptive repairs is commendable.

By the way Tesla has now extended the drivetrain warranty to 8 years

As for battery lifespan, again the warranty is 8 years. In addition to that they have started with their battery swap stations where one can have the pack changed out to a fully charged one in under 3 minutes at a cost of around $100. The packs are essentially on loan and you can go back to pick up your old one after your trip. Or you can pay a prorated upgrade charge to keep the new pack and the fee is based on the age of your old one.

For those who do not know about the Tesla battery swap stations check out Elon Musks presentation where he does a head to head comparison of a conventional gas fill up using an Audi A8 versus a Tesla battery swap. It's quite interesting.

I believe the first swap station has opened in California in December.

Clearly, I got the short straw. My A8 must be Audi's warranty test vehicle. I don't remember signing up for that. Perhaps I should take a closer look at the window sticker to read the fine print... LOL.

But, thanks to the search function on the forums I know that most of the issues that have affected my car have affected others here as well. Perhaps not all in one vehicle within just 8 months time like mine but the majority of my problems are not unique to my car. The unique oddities with my car have been a sunglass holder whose spring decided to spring out from its assembly and thus prevent it from closing as well as the passenger side of the front center armrest popping up to the raised position and being difficult to latch down.

Besides that, the squawking and creaking suspension, intermittent side assist, intermittent adaptive cruise, intermittent easy entry, groaning sound when turning at low speeds have all been issues affecting multiple owners here.

Of course, the two check engine lights (cam sensor and O2 sensor failures), MMI display failure twice, and air suspension system failures are premature for a D4 but not unusual for Audis over time.

Also does anyone else have an issue where the gas door never closes on the first push after filling up? Am I doing it wrong? I ALWAYS have to press it at least 3 times before it latches. I noticed the same thing with some of my A8 loaners. Is there an adjustment for this?

Pwrshift

Interesting thread. Tesla looks nice but how do you drive from Toronto to Miami, as I do every year for a months holiday. I take it slow...3 days. Probably 2 weeks in a Tesla.

motegi

A lot of Tesla owners take road trips with their Model S. The Tesla Supercharger stations are springing up along the major interstates and more and more hotels are installing EV charging stations for their clients. The key is preplanning the trip.

Supercharger | Tesla Motors

LA to NY in January 2013 (via frozen Minnnesota and Chicago) in 76 hours.

When you stop for lunch or a coffee/bathroom break you would just make sure that the chosen stop is next to a Supercharger location where you can plug in the car. All of these locations as well as the non-Tesla/shared EV charging stations are listed in the in-car telematics database as well as on multiple websites online.

Even places like Disney World have dedicated EV parking spots with charging stations available right at the parks. Actually, EV owners get to cut the line and park right next to the entrance.

Once the Tesla Battery Swap stations become more common the stops will be even faster. Faster than filling a gas tank.

Battery Swap | Tesla Motors

P.S. Watch the video. Notice that Javier's A8 fuel door didn't close properly on the first push either... Same issue as mine. There must be a way to adjust the latch sensitivity.

BigBoy11

Every state has lemon laws. If you are having that many problems, your state's attorney general's office or consumer protection agency would want to know. As much as I detest government regulations and oversight, that is why those laws were enacted.

motegi

I did look into lemon laws as well but I believe that it applies to vehicles where a particular issue is unable to be corrected after 4 visits to the dealer.

My vehicle is suffering instead from a wide array of issues each requiring trips to the dealer.

The most frequent have been the check engine light that has occurred three different times with two sensors being changed. Also the suspension noise issue that is awaiting parts to arrive.

GR8-LIFE

I have been on the Tesla bandwagon for a few years and I oppose most of the automotive industry who wish for Tesla (or any electric car) to fail primarily due to the automotive service industry profit on conventional engines and drivetrains. Hey, I get it. Blacksmiths weren’t very happy either when Ford introduced the car-transportation paradigm but we cant afford to remain stagnant in technology. It upsets me to say the least.

But since 2007, Tesla has been slow to progress. Some of it is Automotive industry resistance. Some of it may even be federal regs. But most of it lies in the fact that we are just not quite there. Distance and battery life remains a huge obstacle. A/C, Uphill climbs and many things affect battery life and longevity. Infrastructure is a huge concern as well since distance is an issue.

It is getting better. I would love to have a an electric DD luxury car Ofcourse and I think everyone would embrace the low cost maintenance of electric transportation (even if its a Chevy volt or Nissan leaf) but I think we need another 10 years at least and more likely atleast 20 to get a national solid infrastructure in place. If you get one, you had better evaluate all of these things (it sounds like you have atleast begun to do some good research).

I will say that Tesla would proably needs to improve a bit on looks and I need a good sound system but that's just me. B&O is now offering upgrades to Mercedes & AUDI but I suspect B&O will be limited to german cars.

BTW, I live 30 minutes from a big tesla service center in South Fl and in 2011 I had the pleasure of test driving a 3rd generation tesla roadster (which they no longer produce). It reminded me of a Lotus elise as it had no power steering. The thing was amazingly quick and nimble. It was silent with some amazing tq. But it didn’t take long to get the “Reduced Power “ message. This was attributed to the battery getting too hot. Hopefully they have ironed out those issues