My 1985 4000 turbo quattro project
11-06-2010, 11:34 AM
#21
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
While you have the engine out, I would replace both the clutch release bearing and the slave cylinder. The bearing is easy, it's right there when the engine is free (see the pic in my third post).
The slave cylinder sucks.
I was reading about it on another site and someone said it's easy with the engine out. Now I know that they were either kidding or they have magical powers.
I wouldn't even attempt it with the engine in. Partially because it's hard to get to, but mostly because you stand a good chance of breaking it off and then you'll have to pull the engine or transmission to dig out the rest. The cylinder is pretty much guaranteed to be seized in the transmission housing and so banging on it from the back can break off the front half. Even if this worst-case scenario doesn't happen, you can still have pieces of the rubber boot fall back into the clutch or the clutch release rod itself, which isn't held in by anything really, just the boot which will probably have disintegrated anyway.
With the engine out, the AC lines deleted, and the battery tray removed it's a step below being a real pain.
So first you need to locate the offending piece, which is directly under the steering rack/tie rods when viewed from the front of the car (the slave is not visible in this picture, it's just where to look for it):
The slave is held in by a roll pin, and the roll pin is held in by a wire that you have to pull out from the driver's side. I have no idea why they added the wire, since the pin isn't going anywhere, but that's Audi for you.
The roll pin is hollow, so you have to use something that's small enough to fit in the hole it's in but not so small that it fits inside the pin. I ended up making my own tool:
I used a 7" piece of 1/4" round steel bar. I chucked this in my drill press and while it was spinning (on a slow speed), I used a combination of my small grinder, a file, and sandpaper to do a poor man's machine job to turn down about 2" of the end. The diameter needs to be just shy of 6mm.
If you have the same open area that I have, it's easiest to do from the passenger side, driving the pin toward the driver's side. If you have the battery tray and AC in, you'll have to go the other direction, which is a little tight.
Now, once the roll pin is out, use whatever penetrating oil you want, and then you'll want to use a piece of sturdy pipe to drive the old cylinder out, going from the front of the car (inside the transmission housing). This will pretty much guarantee that you won't break it off inside the housing like you might if you took it out from the back.
The new one might not go in easily, so don't be afraid to clean up the hole with some emery cloth (go easy though) and sand off any burrs that might be on the new cylinder.
Two very important things to make it easy for the next guy (who might be you):
1) Put some kind of anti-seize on the new cylinder. It's steel against aluminum, and differing metals will often get really stuck due to corrosion. Even some lithium grease will be better than nothing.
2) Use a bolt with a nut on it in place of the roll pin. A 6mm diameter bolt should fit perfectly in there. Don't worry about getting the nut super tight, just so it doesn't come loose. This will be a lot easier to get out than that stupid pin.
Anyway, it's good that I'm replacing mine, as the rod was broken in two, just being held in place by what was left of the rubber boot. That pretty well explains why there was only about 1/2" of movement in the clutch pedal before the clutch was engaged completely.
-Rog
The slave cylinder sucks.
I was reading about it on another site and someone said it's easy with the engine out. Now I know that they were either kidding or they have magical powers.
I wouldn't even attempt it with the engine in. Partially because it's hard to get to, but mostly because you stand a good chance of breaking it off and then you'll have to pull the engine or transmission to dig out the rest. The cylinder is pretty much guaranteed to be seized in the transmission housing and so banging on it from the back can break off the front half. Even if this worst-case scenario doesn't happen, you can still have pieces of the rubber boot fall back into the clutch or the clutch release rod itself, which isn't held in by anything really, just the boot which will probably have disintegrated anyway.
With the engine out, the AC lines deleted, and the battery tray removed it's a step below being a real pain.
So first you need to locate the offending piece, which is directly under the steering rack/tie rods when viewed from the front of the car (the slave is not visible in this picture, it's just where to look for it):
The slave is held in by a roll pin, and the roll pin is held in by a wire that you have to pull out from the driver's side. I have no idea why they added the wire, since the pin isn't going anywhere, but that's Audi for you.
The roll pin is hollow, so you have to use something that's small enough to fit in the hole it's in but not so small that it fits inside the pin. I ended up making my own tool:
I used a 7" piece of 1/4" round steel bar. I chucked this in my drill press and while it was spinning (on a slow speed), I used a combination of my small grinder, a file, and sandpaper to do a poor man's machine job to turn down about 2" of the end. The diameter needs to be just shy of 6mm.
If you have the same open area that I have, it's easiest to do from the passenger side, driving the pin toward the driver's side. If you have the battery tray and AC in, you'll have to go the other direction, which is a little tight.
Now, once the roll pin is out, use whatever penetrating oil you want, and then you'll want to use a piece of sturdy pipe to drive the old cylinder out, going from the front of the car (inside the transmission housing). This will pretty much guarantee that you won't break it off inside the housing like you might if you took it out from the back.
The new one might not go in easily, so don't be afraid to clean up the hole with some emery cloth (go easy though) and sand off any burrs that might be on the new cylinder.
Two very important things to make it easy for the next guy (who might be you):
1) Put some kind of anti-seize on the new cylinder. It's steel against aluminum, and differing metals will often get really stuck due to corrosion. Even some lithium grease will be better than nothing.
2) Use a bolt with a nut on it in place of the roll pin. A 6mm diameter bolt should fit perfectly in there. Don't worry about getting the nut super tight, just so it doesn't come loose. This will be a lot easier to get out than that stupid pin.
Anyway, it's good that I'm replacing mine, as the rod was broken in two, just being held in place by what was left of the rubber boot. That pretty well explains why there was only about 1/2" of movement in the clutch pedal before the clutch was engaged completely.
-Rog
Last edited by Rogviler; 01-01-2012 at 04:57 PM.
11-16-2010, 09:20 AM
#23
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Thanks! All the encouragement really helps.
So after replacing the slave cylinder and release bearing, the cold weather finally decided to catch up with the season so I haven't gotten much done. For me it's not even the cold so much as the fact that it now gets dark practically in the middle of the afternoon, and I'm not a morning person...
I did get a good start on the bumper. The shocks need to be removed to fit the one-piece turn signals mentioned in one of my first posts. You could remove the inboard reflector housing on each of the lights to use them with the shocks (retaining the lens as one piece), but I think it will be neat to have both sides functional as a turn signal, or one could be turn and the other park or whatever combination you want.
These are the bad boys here:
Parts numbers are 12-1412-01 for the left and 12-1411-01 for the right, and the brand is TYC. I got mine off of eBay.
The plan is basically to make it so these bolt to the bumper and then the bumper cover should fit nicely over them.
The other reason I want to preserve the housings as they are is because these are cheap and easy to get, so if I ever break one I want to be able to replace it without having to do a lot of modifications.
I'm not sure exactly how the European bumpers are configured, but I know they just have a bracket rather than shocks holding them to the car, so that could be one option.
What I decided to do was replace the shocks with angled brackets. This will give me a lot of room to fit the lights in. I thought it was going to be straightforward welding, but I didn't even think that the bumper would be aluminum, which I quickly realized after I took the plastic cover off.
So instead I had to make something that would bolt to the bumper and then I could weld the rest...
A big consideration is making it so that the bumper mounts the correct distance away from the car and isn't crooked. I scratched my head a little, but finally decided that I would bolt a piece of angle steel to the bumper and weld the brackets to the existing plate that mounts the shock to the car. Once that was solid I would cut the shock part off.
You can see this pretty well here:
If you're careful enough, you can tack weld the pieces together to keep them from moving around and THEN drill or cut the shocks to release the pressurized gel inside. If you're cautious, drain the shocks first and then be really careful not to let them move around as you weld the brackets on, which will screw up the alignment. You just don't want to do all your welding with the shocks pressurized on the off-chance that they explode from the heat.
Did the right side the same way:
You don't have to get too crazy with beefing it up. Like I said, the bumper itself is aluminum, plus the plastic cover, so it's not too heavy. In fact most of the weight seems to be in the shocks and the plates the hold them onto the bumper, and those will be gone anyway. As you can see I went with the same 1/4" thickness of steel that the stock mounting plate has. It's not going anywhere.
The disclaimer of course is that you won't have that give in the bumper if you hit something, but if the Europeans don't use shocks then that's good enough for me. Plus it's not like the shocks are going to save your car if you hit something going much faster than parking lot speed and I, at least, am not such a terrible driver that I go around routinely bumping gently into poles and trees, which is pretty much all they're good for. But it's something to consider before you take the plunge.
Anyway, you could use the same mod to do stock turn signals plus square fog lights, Euro style. I think it was easy just because there's really no measuring or having to worry about the bumper lining up correctly since the shock holds everything right where it needs to be for you until it's all welded together. I did have to trim a little sheet metal to get the angled part of the bracket to fit, but it's only sheet metal and it'll be hidden by the bumper cover. I didn't need nearly as much room as I thought, so I could have angled the brackets differently to avoid this.
More after I cut the shocks off and cut the opening for the lights...
-Rog
So after replacing the slave cylinder and release bearing, the cold weather finally decided to catch up with the season so I haven't gotten much done. For me it's not even the cold so much as the fact that it now gets dark practically in the middle of the afternoon, and I'm not a morning person...
I did get a good start on the bumper. The shocks need to be removed to fit the one-piece turn signals mentioned in one of my first posts. You could remove the inboard reflector housing on each of the lights to use them with the shocks (retaining the lens as one piece), but I think it will be neat to have both sides functional as a turn signal, or one could be turn and the other park or whatever combination you want.
These are the bad boys here:
Parts numbers are 12-1412-01 for the left and 12-1411-01 for the right, and the brand is TYC. I got mine off of eBay.
The plan is basically to make it so these bolt to the bumper and then the bumper cover should fit nicely over them.
The other reason I want to preserve the housings as they are is because these are cheap and easy to get, so if I ever break one I want to be able to replace it without having to do a lot of modifications.
I'm not sure exactly how the European bumpers are configured, but I know they just have a bracket rather than shocks holding them to the car, so that could be one option.
What I decided to do was replace the shocks with angled brackets. This will give me a lot of room to fit the lights in. I thought it was going to be straightforward welding, but I didn't even think that the bumper would be aluminum, which I quickly realized after I took the plastic cover off.
So instead I had to make something that would bolt to the bumper and then I could weld the rest...
A big consideration is making it so that the bumper mounts the correct distance away from the car and isn't crooked. I scratched my head a little, but finally decided that I would bolt a piece of angle steel to the bumper and weld the brackets to the existing plate that mounts the shock to the car. Once that was solid I would cut the shock part off.
You can see this pretty well here:
If you're careful enough, you can tack weld the pieces together to keep them from moving around and THEN drill or cut the shocks to release the pressurized gel inside. If you're cautious, drain the shocks first and then be really careful not to let them move around as you weld the brackets on, which will screw up the alignment. You just don't want to do all your welding with the shocks pressurized on the off-chance that they explode from the heat.
Did the right side the same way:
You don't have to get too crazy with beefing it up. Like I said, the bumper itself is aluminum, plus the plastic cover, so it's not too heavy. In fact most of the weight seems to be in the shocks and the plates the hold them onto the bumper, and those will be gone anyway. As you can see I went with the same 1/4" thickness of steel that the stock mounting plate has. It's not going anywhere.
The disclaimer of course is that you won't have that give in the bumper if you hit something, but if the Europeans don't use shocks then that's good enough for me. Plus it's not like the shocks are going to save your car if you hit something going much faster than parking lot speed and I, at least, am not such a terrible driver that I go around routinely bumping gently into poles and trees, which is pretty much all they're good for. But it's something to consider before you take the plunge.
Anyway, you could use the same mod to do stock turn signals plus square fog lights, Euro style. I think it was easy just because there's really no measuring or having to worry about the bumper lining up correctly since the shock holds everything right where it needs to be for you until it's all welded together. I did have to trim a little sheet metal to get the angled part of the bracket to fit, but it's only sheet metal and it'll be hidden by the bumper cover. I didn't need nearly as much room as I thought, so I could have angled the brackets differently to avoid this.
More after I cut the shocks off and cut the opening for the lights...
-Rog
Last edited by Rogviler; 11-16-2010 at 09:26 AM.
11-20-2010, 12:01 PM
#24
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
I know this is getting a little ahead of myself, but I'm still trying to figure out what color to paint this car. I was seriously considering John Deere Blitz Black because it's easy, cheap, and durable, but satin black is still satin black, you know? On the other hand, this isn't going to be a show car so I have no interest in meticulously sanding it perfectly smooth to do a $2000 paint job.
Messing around in Photoshop helps, but sometimes you can get a little wacky...
What do you think?
By the way, I found out that the best way to make stainless steel bolts impossible to remove is to accidentally get a little welding spatter on the threads.
-Rog
Messing around in Photoshop helps, but sometimes you can get a little wacky...
What do you think?
By the way, I found out that the best way to make stainless steel bolts impossible to remove is to accidentally get a little welding spatter on the threads.
-Rog
11-27-2010, 02:42 PM
#25
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Here are the bumper brackets, basically finished except for some cleanup and a little paint:
I think I'm just going to leave the back part of the shock housings on there. They're not hurting anything and they make it easy to line the bumper back up.
And we have quad-rounds:
Ignore the crooked bumper cover, it's not held on by anything, I just needed a place to stick it where it wouldn't blow away. Hey, some people had their roofs blow off with our recent windstorms, so don't think I'm just being paranoid.
The only thing that's kind of a pain with quad-rounds is that most have little tabs that stick out that hold the headlight frames on. You can't cut them off, obviously, but they always seem to be right in the way. I may end up cutting some of the crap right under the hood to make some more space.
Basically to install them all I did was weld two tabs on the bottom of the headlight buckets and one on the top, to match up with the stock screw holes. If you use sheet metal for the tabs you can bend them to get the fit just right.
People go on and on about needing the buckets from a specific car, but since you'll have to weld new brackets on anyway (even if you manage to find some old Audi or VW ones), just look for some that are spaced correctly as far as the high beams being farther forward than the low beams, so they follow the curve of the front end. I happened to use some e30 BMW ones because they were cheap (I can pretty much guarantee any junkyard will have several), but don't think it has to be anything special.
Unfortunately it's becoming more and more obvious that this car took a small bump to the front end. It's not much, but just enough to throw everything off cosmetically. But other than needing to fix the passenger side under the headlights I'm probably just going to cut the center out of the front and add a piece or two of tubing, depending on what I decide to do with the intercooler...
-Rog
I think I'm just going to leave the back part of the shock housings on there. They're not hurting anything and they make it easy to line the bumper back up.
And we have quad-rounds:
Ignore the crooked bumper cover, it's not held on by anything, I just needed a place to stick it where it wouldn't blow away. Hey, some people had their roofs blow off with our recent windstorms, so don't think I'm just being paranoid.
The only thing that's kind of a pain with quad-rounds is that most have little tabs that stick out that hold the headlight frames on. You can't cut them off, obviously, but they always seem to be right in the way. I may end up cutting some of the crap right under the hood to make some more space.
Basically to install them all I did was weld two tabs on the bottom of the headlight buckets and one on the top, to match up with the stock screw holes. If you use sheet metal for the tabs you can bend them to get the fit just right.
People go on and on about needing the buckets from a specific car, but since you'll have to weld new brackets on anyway (even if you manage to find some old Audi or VW ones), just look for some that are spaced correctly as far as the high beams being farther forward than the low beams, so they follow the curve of the front end. I happened to use some e30 BMW ones because they were cheap (I can pretty much guarantee any junkyard will have several), but don't think it has to be anything special.
Unfortunately it's becoming more and more obvious that this car took a small bump to the front end. It's not much, but just enough to throw everything off cosmetically. But other than needing to fix the passenger side under the headlights I'm probably just going to cut the center out of the front and add a piece or two of tubing, depending on what I decide to do with the intercooler...
-Rog
12-09-2010, 01:18 PM
#27
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Sorry this is so slow, but it really is a colossal pain to work on a car in your driveway when it gets dark in the middle of the afternoon and some days don't get much above freezing. I don't mind the cold weather so much as having to chip ice off things and wait ages for stuff like fiberglass resin to cure.
But I decided on engine mounts. There are a lot of options out there, from OEM to 034's track density to even making your own solid mounts. I wanted something stiff, but not expensive and not too solid. That effectively ruled out those three options. Others have used these Energy Suspension mounts. I don't know all the applications, but I know they're used on a lot of Mustangs for the transmission mounts.
Since most builds only mention these in passing, here's a rundown to make sure you get the right ones:
The part number is 4.1104R and the cheapest place I found was from Amazon.com at just under $25 each with free shipping for both.
Package:
Here's what's inside, plus an instruction sheet which you can throw away:
The piece on the left is supposed to go on the other side of the attachment point. Most people seem to attach the mount in the way that the old one was, which is from the bottom, and they just don't use the extra plate. I'm going to have to play around with this to see what the best way is. It would certainly be stronger if the wishbone thing that holds the mount was sandwiched between the mount and the plate, but there's a rolled edge on it that might make this difficult.
This is how most people do it (borrowed from someone else's project):
Anyway, I'm amazed at how well they line up. The main reason they work so well is a sort of happy accident:
Normally you would use the two end holes when mounting a transmission, but we need a centered hole. Well, for some reason they have a "manufacturing" hole in the ceter that's threaded just like the other two, so this is the one you want to use. Whoever first thought to try this has my praise.
I'll take more pics once I get them installed.
-Rog
But I decided on engine mounts. There are a lot of options out there, from OEM to 034's track density to even making your own solid mounts. I wanted something stiff, but not expensive and not too solid. That effectively ruled out those three options. Others have used these Energy Suspension mounts. I don't know all the applications, but I know they're used on a lot of Mustangs for the transmission mounts.
Since most builds only mention these in passing, here's a rundown to make sure you get the right ones:
The part number is 4.1104R and the cheapest place I found was from Amazon.com at just under $25 each with free shipping for both.
Package:
Here's what's inside, plus an instruction sheet which you can throw away:
The piece on the left is supposed to go on the other side of the attachment point. Most people seem to attach the mount in the way that the old one was, which is from the bottom, and they just don't use the extra plate. I'm going to have to play around with this to see what the best way is. It would certainly be stronger if the wishbone thing that holds the mount was sandwiched between the mount and the plate, but there's a rolled edge on it that might make this difficult.
This is how most people do it (borrowed from someone else's project):
Anyway, I'm amazed at how well they line up. The main reason they work so well is a sort of happy accident:
Normally you would use the two end holes when mounting a transmission, but we need a centered hole. Well, for some reason they have a "manufacturing" hole in the ceter that's threaded just like the other two, so this is the one you want to use. Whoever first thought to try this has my praise.
I'll take more pics once I get them installed.
-Rog
12-11-2010, 02:40 PM
#28
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Okay, so the holes used to attach the mount to the car don't quite line up, but only just. You only need to file the holes about 1mm wider. Then it fits like it was made to go there. I used my trusty Oregon chainsaw sharpening file to make quick work of this. I haven't found a file that cuts so well and yet so smoothly...
I also did some testing and measuring, and it looks like if you put the mount on the top of the bracket it will cause the engine to sit much higher than it should. So it looks like the best solution is to mount it just like the stock ones, from the bottom. That'll give more or less a stock height to the engine.
One other thing I'll mention is that the threaded pins holding the mount on can become dislodged and then it's a real pain to get them loose and or tight. I think I'll be replacing them with bolts, as I don't know how one would get them pressed back in. As it is I think I'll have to cut one of them off.
Lastly, I found a good tutorial on welding sheet metal:
http://fergusoncoachbuilding.blogspo...heetmetal.html
Like most people I thought that the whole panel becomes deformed, but the only reason you get waves and what looks like warping is because the tiny edge where you welded is pulling on the rest. Of course it would be nice if our cars had such nice thick sheet metal as classic cars, but the principle still applies.
-Rog
I also did some testing and measuring, and it looks like if you put the mount on the top of the bracket it will cause the engine to sit much higher than it should. So it looks like the best solution is to mount it just like the stock ones, from the bottom. That'll give more or less a stock height to the engine.
One other thing I'll mention is that the threaded pins holding the mount on can become dislodged and then it's a real pain to get them loose and or tight. I think I'll be replacing them with bolts, as I don't know how one would get them pressed back in. As it is I think I'll have to cut one of them off.
Lastly, I found a good tutorial on welding sheet metal:
http://fergusoncoachbuilding.blogspo...heetmetal.html
Like most people I thought that the whole panel becomes deformed, but the only reason you get waves and what looks like warping is because the tiny edge where you welded is pulling on the rest. Of course it would be nice if our cars had such nice thick sheet metal as classic cars, but the principle still applies.
-Rog
Last edited by Rogviler; 12-11-2010 at 02:44 PM.
12-20-2010, 09:18 PM
#29
AudiWorld Member
Rog, that's quite a project car, man! And slammed...on the weeds, to be sure. You are doing some serious welding and fabrication with that beast! Rather inspiring, I feel like I'm doing nothing. Keep it happening!
07-11-2011, 11:17 AM
#30
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Well, I finally decided to start this up again, starting with getting the engine in. I've been wrestling with it for two days but it just doesn't want to go. The engine and transmission seem to slide together and engage, but won't get any closer than 1"...
Finally I pulled the whole thing out and did some measuring. The clutch is fine and I'm sure the teeth were lining up correctly. But it appears that the end of the input shaft is larger than the hole with the roller bearings that it's supposed to fit into (pilot bearing). WTF?? I've read all the turbo swap writeups out there and have never seen any mention of this. Maybe it's just that they're all lousy (which they kind of are) or perhaps it's the fact that the majority of them were using an automatic transmission-sourced engine, I don't know.
In any case it's pretty annoying and I'm not sure what to do about it. I'm glad so many people out there think this is an "easy and well-documented" swap, it really helps to be told that over and over.
Don't worry though, I plan on actually documenting everything and will post it when I'm done. Of if I get it done...
If anyone has any ideas, please post. I saw mention of someone using the JT flywheel purely for weight purposes, but that's it as far as changing anything in that area that I've seen.
-Rog
Finally I pulled the whole thing out and did some measuring. The clutch is fine and I'm sure the teeth were lining up correctly. But it appears that the end of the input shaft is larger than the hole with the roller bearings that it's supposed to fit into (pilot bearing). WTF?? I've read all the turbo swap writeups out there and have never seen any mention of this. Maybe it's just that they're all lousy (which they kind of are) or perhaps it's the fact that the majority of them were using an automatic transmission-sourced engine, I don't know.
In any case it's pretty annoying and I'm not sure what to do about it. I'm glad so many people out there think this is an "easy and well-documented" swap, it really helps to be told that over and over.
Don't worry though, I plan on actually documenting everything and will post it when I'm done. Of if I get it done...
If anyone has any ideas, please post. I saw mention of someone using the JT flywheel purely for weight purposes, but that's it as far as changing anything in that area that I've seen.
-Rog
Last edited by Rogviler; 07-11-2011 at 11:20 AM.