Wondering about manual transmission availability in next gen...so I asked Audi
04-30-2015, 10:04 AM
#11
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Thank god for BMW and even Cadillac offering direct competitors (4 series and ATS coupe) that do offer a manual. To me that and consumer pressure (which is why I wrote to Audi) is the only chance of the manual staying on.
I find it hard to believe that a company cannot find the business need to still offer a manual for a 5% take. They do not need to develop the manual further but rather, just adapt it to the new model. Shouldn't be that big a deal. If BMW can find a business model that works to offer super unpopular variants of their models like the 3 and 5 series GT's, I'm sure Audi can find one for the manual
I find it hard to believe that a company cannot find the business need to still offer a manual for a 5% take. They do not need to develop the manual further but rather, just adapt it to the new model. Shouldn't be that big a deal. If BMW can find a business model that works to offer super unpopular variants of their models like the 3 and 5 series GT's, I'm sure Audi can find one for the manual
The other thing that's been happening is that more and more cars are engineered around a single transmission. The entire car is built and designed with this single transmission in mind. There is an argument to be made that a car that was designed for a dual clutch transmission, will be better with a dual clutch transmission. For example there have been advancements to the quattro system in its 6. generation, first introduced in the RS5. Namely the crown gear center differential and torque vectoring (not talking about the sport differential, see video). The manual transmission has not been re-engineered for this newer generation drivetrain, so manual transmission cars come with the older torsen center diff drivetrain w/o torque vectoring. The ZF 8-speed has also been re-engineered. It's unlikely that Audi will re-engineer the manual transmission if they continue to offer it for the North American market. The manual transmission that BMW throws into the M5 came right out of the parts bin where it was collecting dust.
To @jsausley's point, I'm actually European and one reason I didn't even consider the manual transmission (not that I had a choice with the RS5) is that I simply didn't want a completely outdated drivetrain. The crown gear center differential with torque vectoring plus sport differential is a better drivetrain than the torsen center diff with sport differential.
Last edited by superswiss; 04-30-2015 at 10:07 AM.
04-30-2015, 10:43 AM
#12
AudiWorld Super User
Outdated can be better than current.
There are a couple of things that factor into offering a manual. The biggest one is the federalization cost that runs into the millions. If Audi doesn't think they sell enough manual transmission cars to make back the federalization cost w/o increasing the MSRP too much, then it's not worth it. They could offer the manual at an extra cost or subject everybody else to subsidizing this dwindling market.
The other thing that's been happening is that more and more cars are engineered around a single transmission. The entire car is built and designed with this single transmission in mind. There is an argument to be made that a car that was designed for a dual clutch transmission, will be better with a dual clutch transmission. For example there have been advancements to the quattro system in its 6. generation, first introduced in the RS5. Namely the crown gear center differential and torque vectoring (not talking about the sport differential, see video). The manual transmission has not been re-engineered for this newer generation drivetrain, so manual transmission cars come with the older torsen center diff drivetrain w/o torque vectoring. The ZF 8-speed has also been re-engineered. It's unlikely that Audi will re-engineer the manual transmission if they continue to offer it for the North American market. The manual transmission that BMW throws into the M5 came right out of the parts bin where it was collecting dust.
To @jsausley's point, I'm actually European and one reason I didn't even consider the manual transmission (not that I had a choice with the RS5) is that I simply didn't want a completely outdated drivetrain. The crown gear center differential with torque vectoring plus sport differential is a better drivetrain than the torsen center diff with sport differential.
Audi the Quattro Principle ''Audi release the latest version of quattro'' - YouTube
The other thing that's been happening is that more and more cars are engineered around a single transmission. The entire car is built and designed with this single transmission in mind. There is an argument to be made that a car that was designed for a dual clutch transmission, will be better with a dual clutch transmission. For example there have been advancements to the quattro system in its 6. generation, first introduced in the RS5. Namely the crown gear center differential and torque vectoring (not talking about the sport differential, see video). The manual transmission has not been re-engineered for this newer generation drivetrain, so manual transmission cars come with the older torsen center diff drivetrain w/o torque vectoring. The ZF 8-speed has also been re-engineered. It's unlikely that Audi will re-engineer the manual transmission if they continue to offer it for the North American market. The manual transmission that BMW throws into the M5 came right out of the parts bin where it was collecting dust.
To @jsausley's point, I'm actually European and one reason I didn't even consider the manual transmission (not that I had a choice with the RS5) is that I simply didn't want a completely outdated drivetrain. The crown gear center differential with torque vectoring plus sport differential is a better drivetrain than the torsen center diff with sport differential.
Audi the Quattro Principle ''Audi release the latest version of quattro'' - YouTube
04-30-2015, 01:26 PM
#13
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There are a couple of things that factor into offering a manual. The biggest one is the federalization cost that runs into the millions. If Audi doesn't think they sell enough manual transmission cars to make back the federalization cost w/o increasing the MSRP too much, then it's not worth it. They could offer the manual at an extra cost or subject everybody else to subsidizing this dwindling market.
The other thing that's been happening is that more and more cars are engineered around a single transmission. The entire car is built and designed with this single transmission in mind. There is an argument to be made that a car that was designed for a dual clutch transmission, will be better with a dual clutch transmission. For example there have been advancements to the quattro system in its 6. generation, first introduced in the RS5. Namely the crown gear center differential and torque vectoring (not talking about the sport differential, see video). The manual transmission has not been re-engineered for this newer generation drivetrain, so manual transmission cars come with the older torsen center diff drivetrain w/o torque vectoring. The ZF 8-speed has also been re-engineered. It's unlikely that Audi will re-engineer the manual transmission if they continue to offer it for the North American market. The manual transmission that BMW throws into the M5 came right out of the parts bin where it was collecting dust.
To @jsausley's point, I'm actually European and one reason I didn't even consider the manual transmission (not that I had a choice with the RS5) is that I simply didn't want a completely outdated drivetrain. The crown gear center differential with torque vectoring plus sport differential is a better drivetrain than the torsen center diff with sport differential.
Audi the Quattro Principle ''Audi release the latest version of quattro'' - YouTube
The other thing that's been happening is that more and more cars are engineered around a single transmission. The entire car is built and designed with this single transmission in mind. There is an argument to be made that a car that was designed for a dual clutch transmission, will be better with a dual clutch transmission. For example there have been advancements to the quattro system in its 6. generation, first introduced in the RS5. Namely the crown gear center differential and torque vectoring (not talking about the sport differential, see video). The manual transmission has not been re-engineered for this newer generation drivetrain, so manual transmission cars come with the older torsen center diff drivetrain w/o torque vectoring. The ZF 8-speed has also been re-engineered. It's unlikely that Audi will re-engineer the manual transmission if they continue to offer it for the North American market. The manual transmission that BMW throws into the M5 came right out of the parts bin where it was collecting dust.
To @jsausley's point, I'm actually European and one reason I didn't even consider the manual transmission (not that I had a choice with the RS5) is that I simply didn't want a completely outdated drivetrain. The crown gear center differential with torque vectoring plus sport differential is a better drivetrain than the torsen center diff with sport differential.
Audi the Quattro Principle ''Audi release the latest version of quattro'' - YouTube
04-30-2015, 01:36 PM
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Thank god for BMW and even Cadillac offering direct competitors (4 series and ATS coupe) that do offer a manual. To me that and consumer pressure (which is why I wrote to Audi) is the only chance of the manual staying on.
I find it hard to believe that a company cannot find the business need to still offer a manual for a 5% take. They do not need to develop the manual further but rather, just adapt it to the new model. Shouldn't be that big a deal. If BMW can find a business model that works to offer super unpopular variants of their models like the 3 and 5 series GT's, I'm sure Audi can find one for the manual
I find it hard to believe that a company cannot find the business need to still offer a manual for a 5% take. They do not need to develop the manual further but rather, just adapt it to the new model. Shouldn't be that big a deal. If BMW can find a business model that works to offer super unpopular variants of their models like the 3 and 5 series GT's, I'm sure Audi can find one for the manual
So does Merc but good luck finding a mt on a US spec performance car.
04-30-2015, 04:14 PM
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Rev matching is fun if you like to hear the engine blip, etc., but as my Daddy used to say, brake pads are much cheaper than clutches and transmissions! And modern brakes are sufficient to preclude use of engine braking in track situations!
Only reason to downshift is for ensuing acceleration or descending a grad (or making noise as I've just said). The rest is just noise, much as a playing card on bicycle spokes!
Only reason to downshift is for ensuing acceleration or descending a grad (or making noise as I've just said). The rest is just noise, much as a playing card on bicycle spokes!
04-30-2015, 08:31 PM
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I owned a DSG for 7 years, and while I completely agree that, practically speaking, they render manual transmissions obsolete for all the reasons stated here, they just aren't as much fun. Ultimately, there is nothing "necessary" about cars like the A5/S5 and the only reason we choose them over, say, a Lexus is really driving enjoyment (maybe styling for some). Therefore, cars like the A5/S5 need to offer features that the target market finds enjoyable. If there were no MT A5 many of us wouldn't own one.
05-01-2015, 03:46 AM
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I owned a DSG for 7 years, and while I completely agree that, practically speaking, they render manual transmissions obsolete for all the reasons stated here, they just aren't as much fun. Ultimately, there is nothing "necessary" about cars like the A5/S5 and the only reason we choose them over, say, a Lexus is really driving enjoyment (maybe styling for some). Therefore, cars like the A5/S5 need to offer features that the target market finds enjoyable. If there were no MT A5 many of us wouldn't own one.
05-02-2015, 04:19 AM
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The lack of a manual is a major reason why I own an A5, rather than an A4 Avant.
There must be too few of us in this market for Audi to care what choices they offer. Pity.
There must be too few of us in this market for Audi to care what choices they offer. Pity.
05-02-2015, 12:47 PM
#20
I would be surprised if audi offered a manual option in the next S5. I had such trouble finding one I had to order my 2014 S5 to spec to get the manual and options I wanted. I believe the dealer said approx 10% of sales are MN6, a very small margin to the bean counters at Audi when deciding what options to eliminate. I hope I'm wrong.