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Secondary Air Injection Pump

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Old 03-22-2010, 09:13 AM   #1
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Default Secondary Air Injection Pump

Ours in our 45K mile 2004 Allroad 2.7T has started whining loudly on startup, however our local dealer says that it is NOT covered under the emissions warranty. That seems very strange to me, given what it does......

Has anyone else had a different experience?

Has anyone tried to repair one? Seems to me it's just a noisey bearing, and if I can get it apart I should be able to replace the offending parts, especially since the pump is is a $500 + replacment piece.....

Edit: found an excellent how-to on rebuilding the pump, just as I thought it's a common sized bearing, I should be able to fix it.

Anyone know about the emissions warranty part of the question?
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Old 03-22-2010, 05:29 PM   #2
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Default I would guess

that they won't warranty it until the computer tells you it's producing insufficient flow. As long as it's making the airflow it's supposed to, they'd probably call the noise a cosmetic problem rather than a functional problem.

More to the point, would you mind posting a link or a DIY on fixing the pump? Mine's doing it too (and it's about 80,000 miles past the warranty), and I'm not a big fan of replacing a $400 part just because a $10 bearing is bad. Let us know how it goes!

Or you can just wait until it quits pumping air, then they should replace it, but some of us have been having this noise for over a year.
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Old 03-23-2010, 06:56 AM   #3
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If you do a search for secondary air pump you'll find the link, it's on the A6 forum but it was for the same setup (2.7T, auto trans) as my allroad. Here's the link....
http://forums.audiworld.com/showthre...injection+pump

I'll do a writeup when I do mine, he wasn't very clear on how he got the bearing out but once I saw the pic of the motor - I've had these apart before so I'll do a more detailed report on that part.

He also bought his bearing at Westlake hardware, even tho this motor doesn't run all that long or under intense conditions, I'm going to buy mine from a bearing house instead of a hardware store. And one more caveat, this is just my experience, but I don't have good luck with Chinese made bearings, even those sold under "Name brand" companies. I prefer those made in the US, Germany and so on - for longevity's sakes.
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Old 03-23-2010, 07:04 AM   #4
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Default Sweet!

Thanks!
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Old 03-23-2010, 09:13 PM   #5
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Default Bearing possibilities

I took mine apart, popped the bearings out and measured them to be 8mm ID and 22mm OD. Mine say "England" and "608S" on them, and one is a little crunchy.

Apparently 608 is a common bearing size. It looks like Milwaukee tools sells one for their routers. Those should hold up to air injector pump use, I would think. Also used in inline skates and skateboards. So if I'm feeling like treating my car to something special, maybe I'll throw in a couple of high-tech ceramic bearings at $50+ each.
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Old 03-24-2010, 07:21 AM   #6
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Thanks for the size, now I can go buy one ahead of time. No harder than it is to fix, I'll probably just buy a new sealed bearing from my local bearing house and call it good - no fancy schmancy ceramics for me! ;-)

Interesting that you said the ID was 8mm (5/16") ,as in the write up I linked above the guy said it was a 1/4" ID bearing he bought - but going by the number 608, it is an 8mm ID.
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Old 03-25-2010, 06:45 PM   #7
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I swapped in some regular ol' bearings (Made in Bulgaria, according to the box), put it all back together and fired it up. And....it still makes the noise.

I don't really care enough to mess with it any more right now, but if you still have yours apart, you might look for other things that could be making the noise. The brushes in mine were off-center, but they were symmetric, so I figured they were supposed to be that way. Maybe one of the little aluminum compressor wheels is rubbing on something or the diffuser vanes are loose? I don't know.

I guess I should have paid more attention while I had it apart, but I was focused on the bearings.

Good luck with yours.
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Old 03-26-2010, 12:30 PM   #8
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I'm going to do mine this weekend, I'll let you know what I find....there's usually a wave washer that goes behind the bearing in the bottom (the end away from the impeller), did you put that back?

If one of your bearings was "crunchy" as you put it, it seems new ones should have fixed it......

I'll put up some pics and such once I'm done....
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Old 03-26-2010, 01:11 PM   #9
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Mine actually had a little coil spring that was machined flat on the ends - it looked to be a pretty well-engineered little motor. I blasted it out with electronics cleaner (the liquid kind, not canned air) and wiped it down. I lubed that spring with a drop of gear oil when I put it together. It was better after I worked on it, but not quiet.

I wonder if I should have left that spring dry. There should be no relative motion between the motor shaft and the inside part of the bearing, so it shouldn't need any lube.

Maybe the shaft is turning relative to the inside race of the bearing. That would probably make some noise.

Mine started making noise after the engine compartment got unusually hot (doing a coolant flush - hours at 2000rpm while sitting still), I don't know if that's a useful clue. There is a foam piece in the bottom of the pump assembly that appears to be a noise suppressing device. Maybe that just deteriorated or came loose.

Centrifugal compressors can make a lot of noise just from chopping up the airflow as it goes through them (I think my ears are still ringing from the time years ago when I got too close to a pair of Garrett turbine engines running at low idle.) Maybe it's a noise-suppression issue rather than a noise-creation issue.

I do kind of wish I had paid more attention while I had it apart. I'll probably end up taking it apart again and having a look. Maybe I'll take the motor over to a friend of mine who rebuilds starters and generators. He might notice something I didn't.
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Old 04-03-2010, 07:03 AM   #10
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Well, I've started working on mine, but for the life of me I can't see where the third bolt is that's holding the bracket in....time to do some more research.

You all made it sound like getting it out was so easy!

Edit: This thing is a bitchkitty to get out, once you do it's no big deal to take the motor apart and put some new bearings in it, but there are a few "tricks" to it. I'll have some pics to post later, but in the thread linked above, there is no way the other poster "cut a hole and knocked the bearing out" as he said he did - if he did he completely ruined the motor housing.

The right way to do it is to take the motor apart. On the impeller end, there are four tabs that stick thru the end plate, if you look closely you can see where they peened the ends out to lock the end plate on. Take a drift and a small hammer and tap the ends back straight, then lay the motor on its side and use the same drift to knock the end plate up over the tabs, it will come right off. Once you have the plate off you can tap out the old bearing and install the new one. Remember to only tap on the outside edge of the bearing as you drive it back in.

To get to the lower bearing, you have to remove the brush assembly and armature. There are four tabs on the side of the motor, carefully bend them out flush or just a bit more, then carefully tap the brush assembly out, it's all one peice. Then simply pull the armature out. The brushes and commutator on my motor were in surprisingly good condition, but the motor had a ton of black carbon dust in it from the operation of the motor - I simply blew it all out well and reassembled it, after replacing the lower bearing. The trick to that one is keeping it off the permanent magnets inside, that want to grab the bearing and your drift as you try to tap it in!

Reassembly is the reverse, once it's all back together, remember to bend the four tabs on the side back in to hold the brush assmebly in place, then take a sharp cold chisel and peen out the ends of the tabs to lock the end plate once it's back on. I used a deep socket over the shaft and put the motor in a vise to hold the end plate down tight while I peened over the ends of the tabs. Then simply put it back together, you might test it first on a battery to make sure it runs and is quiet. Mine was quiet as could be......

There is one nut down on the side of the mounting bracket that's extremely difficult to get to, good luck with that.....I wound up taking the coolant reservoir loose but even so it took an odd combination of socket, extensions and a universal joint in between to get this nut loose and tightened up again, it's the hardest part of the job, IMHO.....
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Old 04-03-2010, 06:30 PM   #11
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Nice writeup! Mine seems to have quieted down some since I put it back in, and now I don't hear it run unless I listen for it. So this seems to be a bonafide fix for these things.

Now if you can figure out how to rebuild the suspension compressor, you'll be an allroad hero!
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Old 04-04-2010, 12:49 PM   #12
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Here are a few pics I took of the process.....the fan motor is the round **** looking thing at the right of the curve in the silver intake pipe.
Click the image to open in full size.

Another view, straight down. There is a 6mm nut (10mm wrench) down on the right side of the bracket that you have to loosen to get the fan assembly out, and it's almost impossible to touch, let alone get a socket on it or even see it due to all the pipes and pieces in the way. I used a socket on a 3" extension, a universal joint, then another 3" extension, then a 10" extension and ratchet to get it loose!

Click the image to open in full size.

My car is a 2004, and the impellers were only held on by this nut, no circlip. The fan and motor both were pretty clean inside, no rust. Lots of carbon dust tho, which I thought would mean new brushes, but they were like new, as was the commutator.

Click the image to open in full size.

You need to straighten these 4 tabs on the end of the motor to get the end plate with the bearing in it out. Once you gently tap these straight, you can lay the motor on its side and tap the end cover off the tabs.

Click the image to open in full size.

Tap the old bearing out and the new one in, only tap the new bearing on the outside race, if you tap it on the inside race you can ruin it.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Bend the 4 tabs on the sides of the motor out, then you can gently tap out the yellow and black brush assembly - it comes out all in one piece. Then remove the armature and tap out the bearing in the bottom. No point in only replacing the one, even it the other isn't noisey right now.

Click the image to open in full size.


Here are all the parts ready to go back together, look how clean and unworn the commutator is on the armature - looks almost new. It's probably a good idea to hook it up to a battery and try it before you reinstall it in the car, as hard as it is to get it back out again!

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 04-09-2010, 06:51 AM   #13
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Thanks for the great post, Dave.

Mine's been intermittently screaming. You should hear it in an indoor parking garage!

I'll wait till it's a problem. Did this definitely solve the problem for you?
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Old 04-09-2010, 09:04 AM   #14
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Mine is as quiet as new, so I'm gonna say it was an unqualified success!
In the garage was where my wife said she kept hearing it too, I never heard it till I opened the hood and had her start it up. Now you can't hear it at all, but I assume it's just running quietly, since I did test it before I installed it and it hasn't thrown any codes since!

Really, the only hard part of the job is getting to that nut down on the side of the bracket, once you've done that the rest is very straightforward. Taking the screws out of the coolant reservoir allows you to get a little more room for your hands.

I would recommend using good bearings from a bearing house. It's not that the ones you'd get at Westlake or the Hardware store are substandard, but you need a bearing rated for an electric motor (the RPM determines this) and I again recommend you stay away from Chinese made bearings. if it says China on the box, simply ask for a different brand - this is a common size so they will have them.

When you go to stake the tabs on the top - I used a deep well socket to press the end on tightly till I got the tabs staked over to hold it, otherwise the plate can spring up slightly and it won't be square, which could lead to premature wear or even the noise the other poster experienced.

Look at the commutator carefully, if it looks smooth, don't do anything to it except blow it off with compressed air. If it's badly grooved, you might be able to save it. I chuck it in a drill press and use a smooth file to carefully turn it down, then clean it up with some fine grit paper - don't forget to undercut the mica between segments if you do this, and make sure you blow all of the copper dust out of the nooks and crannies......

For $15 or whatever's worth of bearings and a little time and trouble, it seems worth it to me, compared to the cost of a new one.....
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Old 04-09-2010, 07:17 PM   #15
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Default Dealer thought the same thing here .... but was wrong

I had an identical sound on startup at about 40K miles. Dealer diagnosed as secondary air pump so he installed a new one. Unfortunately the same noise was there afterwards and that was not the fix. Good news was that I got a secondary air pump with installation for free. The odd noise that sounded like a bearing went away about a month later on its own and never came back.
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Old 04-10-2010, 07:34 AM   #16
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I think I'm the other poster, and I'm happy to report that after a couple of startups, it's now as quiet as it ever was. I can hear the electric motor running if I open the hood, but all the banshee noises are gone, and from inside the car, it's completely inaudible.

When I did mine, I pulled the coolant reservoir up and out of the way, and the side nut wasn't too bad-it doesn't need to be removed, just loosened enough to slide the bracket up and out. Extensions are your friend. On the other hand, I have a manual, and there might be different breather hoses and such back there based on transmission.

I honed the commutator down a little, but it was really in pretty good shape as it was.

Someone should probably offer rebuild service on these for a reasonable price, given how expensive they are to replace and how easy to fix for a somewhat mechanically-minded person. It'd be a reasonable solution for someone who doesn't want to take it apart themselves.
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Old 04-10-2010, 12:52 PM   #17
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I'd be happy to do that, if you can get it off and send it to me I can replace the bearings and brushes as needed.

Send me a PM
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Old 04-13-2010, 11:10 PM   #18
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I had the secondary pump replaced under warranty with 40000 miles due to loud noise.
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Old 04-15-2010, 11:50 AM   #19
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Dave, what do you think about this bearing?

I've never used ceramic, but would guess that it would be good for high temp, like on an engine.

http://bearingsdirect.com/store/inde..._detail&p=4212
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Old 04-15-2010, 03:29 PM   #20
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Well, first off that's really cheap for ceramic bearings - check the country of origin......

Secondly, you don't need bearings this good, but you'll never have to replace them again, that's for sure! Only one thing bother's me.....metal shielded bearings are that way because they're meant to be regreased, and there is no way to do that on this little motor except to take it apart again. Sealed bearings usually have plastic seals instead of metal. That wouldn't stop me from using them tho!

Let us know what you decide to do, and good luck on your repair!
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