RIP Luis Aldaz. For those of you unaware, he had just signed on to drive in ALMS.
03-30-2007, 02:01 PM
#23
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Condolences on a sad event, but I take exception to "It's a mistake any of us could have made"
With all due sensitivity for what's clearly a tragic event, your summary describes some really poor judgment (on a public road no less).
I understand the desire for not blaming someone whose death you're mourning - but I believe it's very dangerous to confuse the mistake of taking a corner too fast with the mistake of taking a corner too fast on a public road with unknown traffic and (apparantly) very little margin for error and very severe consequences for error (i.e. "To his left was the vertical face of a cliff, and to his right, a steep ravine with large redwoods. In front a hairpin loomed large."). The "perfect storm" appears to be composed of elements almost completely under the driver's control, or ability to observe and avoid appropriately.
I think I've heard of more people dying/injured/flipped cars on/around these kind of car meets in the past few years than I have in 15yrs flying small airplanes (including a decent number of experimentals). This is not a good record. My experience from the experimental/light aircraft community is that pilot errors are well-known and well-discussed - there are few comments on the order of "It's a mistake any of us could have made" when that mistake results in a severe accident. To do so puts a facade of fatalism on an event that was avoidable.
Every accident that has happened in my circle of aviation friends and acquaintances is taken to heart so that it never happens again - we are aware of the causes, contributing factors, and our own exposure to similar events. A friend of mine had an cylinder physically depart the airplane and made an emergency landing in a Santa Rosa field that ended up damaging the airplane - he was railed pretty thoroughly for his mistakes after the engine failure that contributed to the damage. Harsh? Maybe, but I learned his lessons too and those mistakes generally don't happen twice.
I just don't see this happening in the car enthusiast community, and it troubles me to see such a lax attitude.
I apologize if this comes across as insensitive at this time - it is my intention only to bring some of my experience from another community in the hopes that it will provide some beneficial food for thought for this one.
I understand the desire for not blaming someone whose death you're mourning - but I believe it's very dangerous to confuse the mistake of taking a corner too fast with the mistake of taking a corner too fast on a public road with unknown traffic and (apparantly) very little margin for error and very severe consequences for error (i.e. "To his left was the vertical face of a cliff, and to his right, a steep ravine with large redwoods. In front a hairpin loomed large."). The "perfect storm" appears to be composed of elements almost completely under the driver's control, or ability to observe and avoid appropriately.
I think I've heard of more people dying/injured/flipped cars on/around these kind of car meets in the past few years than I have in 15yrs flying small airplanes (including a decent number of experimentals). This is not a good record. My experience from the experimental/light aircraft community is that pilot errors are well-known and well-discussed - there are few comments on the order of "It's a mistake any of us could have made" when that mistake results in a severe accident. To do so puts a facade of fatalism on an event that was avoidable.
Every accident that has happened in my circle of aviation friends and acquaintances is taken to heart so that it never happens again - we are aware of the causes, contributing factors, and our own exposure to similar events. A friend of mine had an cylinder physically depart the airplane and made an emergency landing in a Santa Rosa field that ended up damaging the airplane - he was railed pretty thoroughly for his mistakes after the engine failure that contributed to the damage. Harsh? Maybe, but I learned his lessons too and those mistakes generally don't happen twice.
I just don't see this happening in the car enthusiast community, and it troubles me to see such a lax attitude.
I apologize if this comes across as insensitive at this time - it is my intention only to bring some of my experience from another community in the hopes that it will provide some beneficial food for thought for this one.
03-30-2007, 03:09 PM
#24
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It is and it isn't. The set of S curves had a clear view from start to finish excep that last turn,
at which point it appears that he was on the correct side of the road rather than straddle the center. You or I would probably go straight at the S curves too, seeing as there was a clear view. The problem occurred when the radius of the last left turn sharpened out of sight behind the cliff and the angle of the grade also became steeper at the same time. What was sufficient braking for most corners, wasn't enough here. All bad things with a tail heavy car that was already probably near the dynamic limits under braking.
We also conjectured that his car could have had a mechanical failure.After all, he was about to become a professional driver, so any mistake of this magnitude seems out of character.
In the end we'll probably never know exactly what happened.
We also conjectured that his car could have had a mechanical failure.After all, he was about to become a professional driver, so any mistake of this magnitude seems out of character.
In the end we'll probably never know exactly what happened.
03-30-2007, 05:38 PM
#26
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With all due respect, this response is exactly the attitude I'm trying to (benevolently) criticize.
"You or I would probably go straight at the S curves too, seeing as there was a clear view."
Absolutely, positively, I would not. Lane-splitting on a public road with unknown traffic, on a road whose turns he was clearly unfamiliar with? I don't mean to start an argument here (given the circumstances) but this is precisely the attitude I'm criticizing in my other post.
Driving anywhere near the limits on an (apparantly) unfamiliar road demonstrates extraordinarily poor judgment.
Straightening the S-turns on a public road demonstrates extraordinarily poor judgment.
In general, putting yourself in situations with no/few options, as a dividend of your own choices, demonstrates extraordinarily poor judgment and will eventually have dire consequences. I don't fly or drive like that, and hope to live a long, non-extreme life, within the bounds of the activities I pursue. Some of these are risky activities (experimental composite airplanes, goofy eastern-bloc military planes), but the attitudes and judgment of the pilot are an enormous part of the risk equation. The risk equation of this accident appears to be entirely under the control of the gentleman that was killed.
On a track? Awesome - go for it, the risks are managed, the course is known, and generally put only the driver in harm's way. On an unknown public road? Absolutely inappropriate. For me, loops and rolls are great, relatively safe fun, but ludicrously dangerous with the wrong airplane or the wrong conditions.
Again, my goal here isn't just to criticize him. It's to show that the attitudes, judgment, and behaviors that led to the accident make this sort of result unsurprising. Out of a genuine desire not to have people dying well before their time, I hope people adjust their attitudes about these kind of activities.
Absolutely, positively, I would not. Lane-splitting on a public road with unknown traffic, on a road whose turns he was clearly unfamiliar with? I don't mean to start an argument here (given the circumstances) but this is precisely the attitude I'm criticizing in my other post.
Driving anywhere near the limits on an (apparantly) unfamiliar road demonstrates extraordinarily poor judgment.
Straightening the S-turns on a public road demonstrates extraordinarily poor judgment.
In general, putting yourself in situations with no/few options, as a dividend of your own choices, demonstrates extraordinarily poor judgment and will eventually have dire consequences. I don't fly or drive like that, and hope to live a long, non-extreme life, within the bounds of the activities I pursue. Some of these are risky activities (experimental composite airplanes, goofy eastern-bloc military planes), but the attitudes and judgment of the pilot are an enormous part of the risk equation. The risk equation of this accident appears to be entirely under the control of the gentleman that was killed.
On a track? Awesome - go for it, the risks are managed, the course is known, and generally put only the driver in harm's way. On an unknown public road? Absolutely inappropriate. For me, loops and rolls are great, relatively safe fun, but ludicrously dangerous with the wrong airplane or the wrong conditions.
Again, my goal here isn't just to criticize him. It's to show that the attitudes, judgment, and behaviors that led to the accident make this sort of result unsurprising. Out of a genuine desire not to have people dying well before their time, I hope people adjust their attitudes about these kind of activities.
03-30-2007, 09:55 PM
#28
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Straightening the S curves themselves posed no harm to anyone as the view was clear, he was
on the correct side of the road when the view was obstructed, and any loss of control would have resulted in him falling off the road without crossing over onto the other side (as it was in this case).
I have "straightened" out S curves many a time when the way was clear - as would most people. In this case he appeared to be going faster than some of us, but posing no risk to others.
In any case, you may wish to critique this at another time and thread, as I have offered my best guess and that is all it is. For you or I to make judgements on that, is hasty and in poor taste.
I have "straightened" out S curves many a time when the way was clear - as would most people. In this case he appeared to be going faster than some of us, but posing no risk to others.
In any case, you may wish to critique this at another time and thread, as I have offered my best guess and that is all it is. For you or I to make judgements on that, is hasty and in poor taste.
03-30-2007, 11:54 PM
#29
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I wouldn't have commented (and haven't, in prior circumstances)
but the assertion that "It's a mistake any of us could have made" was inaccurate, potentially-harmful, and begged the response given.
I won't push the issue further.
I won't push the issue further.
03-31-2007, 12:08 AM
#30
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"I have "straightened" out S curves many a time when the way was clear - as would most people."
While you may consider criticizing this behavior (treating public roads as a track) to be "hasty and in poor taste," the vast majority of drivers, bicyclists, and pedestrians with whom you share the road would strongly disagree with you.