tmfstyle

Article in Guardian indicates many more diesels emit 3-5X more NOX on the road than the weaker European standards permit. Beginning to feel that simply no technology yet to control some diesel emissions. Like to see EPA publish on road results for diesel trucks. Willing to bet it would dwarf VW's problem.

Four more carmakers join diesel emissions row | Environment | The Guardian

BlackSVT

I've been saying this throughout this thread. The tests in place have always been laughable if anyone thought the actual pollution numbers were the real, on-road goal while in customer's hands. The tests were a crude means of determining that reductions were being made. No more, no less.

Problem for VW now is that you can bet that EPA and EU are going to force them to prove even their on-road emissions meet the spec. That's something nobody else has to do (yet...)

In the end, VW just made their Nox emissions tests 3-10x tougher than if they'd played by the rules originally. ...on an engine that was already giving them fits as to how to meet the specs

tmfstyle

Agree that the emission tests are a crude way of pushing industry to make improvements but they have been somewhat effective. Strict literal application of emission rules are likely untenable and would require taking almost all vehicles off the road. VW has to argue that any standards, testing procedures applied to them must be applied to all. Regulators would have to back off VW or if they apply the same standards to all create complete Chaos. Got to believe regulators won't risk screwing up our transportation system but given the politics involved it is a risk.

ELEVENS

If we would just ban petroleum, we wouldn't have this problem. Some think it's a good idea:

Don Keener

Well... the 3.0 TDI is mentioned in this one... not in a good way.

Report: Basically All Diesel Cars Emit Way More Than Legal Limit

BlackSVT

I'm just amazed that this is news to anyone. The legal limit, along with the lab test for determining that, is very clearly spelled out. Nowhere does it state anything about real world emissions in any of the tests because the people making this crap up have no basis in the real world! So we have bogus limits, bogus tests, engineers dedicated to wasting time meeting arbitrary standards, and now people pissed off that real-world results don't match pie-in-the-sky. business as usual in other words.

Thus, the animosity created between government and the manufacturers. Any significant progress on solving a real problem should have included the input from the engineers trying to solve the damn problem, not some bureaucrat.

$#@#%#$
Off my soapbox. I need a beer

tmfstyle

If I were a VW exec I would have an independent testing company do on-road tests of a large number of cars (gas and diesel) from all significant manufacturers. I suspect most would show far higher emissions than the lab tested levels. If the attack on Volkswagen becomes existential I would publicize the results and challenge the regulators to put the world wide auto industry out of business. I'd bet the political lynch mob now attacking VW would dissipate pretty quickly. The cost of such a study would be considerable but pale in comparison to the estimated costs VW already faces.

ELEVENS

AMEN! Nothing to add, excellent post!

Redd

In the real world, absent any messy details, a smaller engine always gets better economy than a larger engine. Except, as we all may be aware, in the real world you have drivers with lead feet, gentle drivers, sleeping drivers, burbs with flatlands like Chicago, burbs that are all up and down like Seattle, and other real world variables.

One lab test could never accommodate these all, so a good lab test tries to approximate the average conditions that will be met. In my experience that means the city mileage numbers for ANY car will be wrong, as I always (always) have gotten better mileage with a bigger engine, due to my wants and needs for higher performance and faster starts in the city. That doesn't make the lab tests wrong, it just means the folks who don't understand the tests IN CONTEXT, are wrong. The folks are wrong--the tests are not. Even if they're not the closest approximation to anyone's individual reality that they might be.

There's no excuse for a manufacturer gaming the tests and intentionally making the tests even less realistic by using intentionally concealed, secret, deceptive, and criminally purposed software.

It is quite one thing to say "the tests are flawed" and quite another to intentionally MAKE them flawed for your product.

I'd be quit happy to see the Fed say "OK, here's the cost of actual damages, including buybacks from all unhappy rubes that bought the cars. Here's what treble damages come to, as the normal damage award. And here's how we're going to make sure that VW can't go bankrupt, can't withdraw from the US market, but has to suffer for the next twenty years to pay back every red cent, with interest. Anyone else who wants to do this to our testing program again? Please step forward."

That's not only fair, especially to the owners, but one an argue that it is the LEAST penalty that can be given. VW's only concern should be "Is there any way we can deal for a little something better?"

Deckardk

^ The problem with your approach is the feds didn't go this harsh with others, and others have actually killed people.

And anything that would harm a company for "twenty years" would put them out of business. This sounds more like a 99-percenter feel good solution than anything based on reality.