MP4.2+6.0

Given the prior comments, as I said I can answer any questions specific to the Q5 Hybrid experience with the OP directly. Just send me a message thru AW's message system with contact/reply info.

Meantime, some follow up from your post for bigger picture Audi subjects:

This is true. The Audi approach fits in here and probably BMW's. Some of Lexus' started that way more strongly--the RXxxxh approach--but now is kind of back dooring smaller Camry type economy oriented hybrids into their line up but coattailing the RX image. Toyota (Lexus) is also a laggard on FSI/direct injection motors in general too, so they are kind of a mixed bag on performance hybrids, even if they use one of the more robust motors.

Also true. That makes the Q5 Hybrid a relatively small intersection, because you need to be in the Prestige class of option configuration for the pricing to make sense. We were, and if anything would have wanted to pick up one or two more things they just don't put in any four cylinder configuration like adaptive cruise. A lot of Q5 buyers aren't looking for Prestige option packs (and pricing) though, regardless of motor.

This last part is a longer and meritorious discussion. First, the Q5 Hybrid will apparently always be only low volume. Unclear why, but it no longer is a lack of commitment or ambivalence in my estimation, following the news and R&D side of Audi more. It frankly could be as simple as Audi would not commit to the volumes ZF wanted, and so they got a limited cut. The mechanical part of the Q5 Hybrid is sourced from ZF. The 8 speed is designed to let you "pancake in" the drive motor directly in place of the conventional torque converter. Very slick and compact "mix and match" package. What isn't talked about is essentially the same tranny set up is used apparently in the BMW Active Hybrids, and there is more volume there. Thus, may be as simple as BMW took the volume/first chair lead w/ ZF. Once you go out the back of the tranny--at the center diff "tail"--the rest becomes standard Audi parts bin longitudinal quattro. Different than the other non VAG Euro guys for the quattro part, but up in the core first part of the tranny where the actual electric drive is, it's in common with what ZF is doing, and in turn is presumably leveraging R&D and volume with others. Thus Audi Hybrid really = ZF Hybrid thru tranny (like BMW or others), then conventional quattro from the Torsen center diff to all wheels. The control electronics are Audi, tightly coupled to the ABS/ESP/TCU and ECU and presumably done together with Bosch, likely again with BMW and others on parallel tracks.

Back on the Audi side, frankly its supposed "next" effort with the A8 is really lame. Essentially just a repackaged Q5 drive in an A8 set up, but only FWD. Almost like they lost some of the elegance of the Q5 design, or maybe it was some older program that essentially got told to kludge the Q5 parts into it kinda sorta and move on. 4 bangers and A8's don't compute, nor do battery packs dumped right into the middle of the trunk--and not specifically designed for an existing space like the Q5 spare. Dumb; a weird destined mostly for China anomoly. Recent Cayenne Hybrid was also just a copy of the almost unheard of Touareg Hybrid, which basically uses the six gas motor instead of the four. Also interesting performance wise, but way too pricy. Also had the limited range battery pack, like the Q5. Cayenne (and now Macan) always worth watching for a few Audi reasons though, both for any new stuff in general, but also because both their Hybrid and their TDI are really Audi drivetrains underneath. They are really loathe to even admit it much less talk about it, but a careful look always reveals the wheelbase shifts slightly on the Cayenne to get to the Touareg/Q7 underpinnings, tranny goes from PDK to ZF 8 speed, etc. Likewise, I suspect the just announced (and expected) Macan TDI will end up being the next gen 3.0TDI given the HP spec they are ball parking, but they are avoiding specifics. On Hybrids, the latest Cayenne update just moved to plug in--both a stronger drive motor IIRC and a bigger battery pack. Likely to come in Audi's future, at more rational price points.

Longer term, not sure what you meant by "VAG going in a different direction," but in any case that direction has been changing even in the last 18 months or so yet again--dramatically so and perhaps with a few management changes alongside. Previously Audi was basically "no" on Hybrids and was hung ho on TDI. And if they ever got more serious and brought in the 4.2TDI for the D4 A8, a near unanimity of us enthusiasts in the "D" world would go for it. But, a number of regulatory developments--alongside engineering--are changing the whole dynamic. First, if you have been in Europe of late you may have run into "Umwelt" zones in the built up cities. Basically you need the Umwelt sticker--and a Euro BIN 4 vehicle--to drive in the core of a lot of bigger cities now. Of course even my W12 can do BIN 4, so that's not a high bar. Good sense it is going to BIN 6, and in turn Audi's next gen TDI (now around the corner) is designed with BIN 6 in mind. Current 3.0TDI isn't BIN 6; various other Audi motors are already there. The scary thought though for car manufacturers is they may basically also require electric drive/zero emissions in the Umwelt areas. Besides pure electrics, that would basically force Plug in Hybrid approaches for anyone wanting to enter the built up city areas. Good luck selling a prestige vehicle that can't enter those areas if they are still drivable as a practical matter.

More soberly, C02 emissions proposals in the EU may radically alter the design landscape, and could render all of what you think of as a Q5 approach obsolete. Various standards under discussion--which is their back door to fuel economy standards we have--could result in what today we kind of think of as hyper mileage. For an Audi set up, the milder form likely starts with outright losing what we now think of as quattro and replacing the rear drive with electric units to pull out a bunch of weight (quattro costs a couple hundred pounds minimum pretty much) plus open up space where the obvious tunnels have now reappeared in most Audi bodies. Think newest Acura designs as a loose proxy, and where the newest RX hybrid has now gone, albeit probably with the typical Toyota so so/standby only AWD set up used for all its car based designs. In any case, you better know hybrids and you better know electrics to go here, and indeed you might drive it with a TDI motor. Next, figure longitudinal motors may not survive either as you go back to tight packaging and the original RWD to FWD shift many companies made in the 70's to 80's transition. Thus, think Q3 set up, or Passat, or A3/TT, etc. Then next, blow the direct connection to the drive out entirely, throw a small dino fuel motor in to charge the batteries when on the road and not plugged in, use electric drive at the wheels, and that could be their final destination. Kind of more competent Volt like. And not as a fringe, but in the core of car production if Europe actually implements their big picture CO2 conceptual commitments.

Lots of conjecture in there, but meantime notice Audi's radical shift in recent racing program approaches, along side the sudden radical shifts by McLaren, Ferrari, etc. In Audi' case, all of a sudden exotic diesel electric stuff. They aren't just playing, as they weren't when they first splashed into LeMans with quattro and blew everything else away. In there somewhere is some of their longest lead thinking of where they think the technology might ultimately trickle down. It won't look or be like the Q5 I now have, but I'm actually a lot more on their path now than a few years ago.

idale

My uneducated guess had always been that it's essentially a "trial" and the low volumes force them to trickle into the market so Audi can get a handle on any potential issues without them being "widespread". It's a relatively new segment for VAG to be playing in (at least from what I recall, it's just been the past few years that hybrids have been coming out, starting with the Jetta on the VW side). My expectation has been that possibly once the next generation hits we'd start to see the volume restriction lift. Though with what you said about the mechanical components being essentially ZF drop-in and BMW also using it, that seems less risky.. but maybe it's a marketing problem, trying to maintain the appropriate "brand story" and get people to want these things when some have been soured by the original slow hybrids?


Bwaaahhhh? They're going to put the 2.0T hybrid in an A8? Hopefully it's at least the aluminum A8L since that seems to weigh about the same as the Q5 (when comparing Q5 TDI vs. A8L TDI), but still you'd think using the 3.0T would be a better match. China seems like a bit of a weird market at times though, so maybe it's similar enough to existing vehicles that Audi figures it'll do well. The trunk will definitely be a problem as you say, I'd seen enough people complaining about lack of trunk space without more room being taken up by batteries. I'd think a hybrid A8 would probably be some sort of executive limo sort of thing, and you'd need to get people's bags in the trunk unless this would just be shuttling CEOs between meetings or something instead of to/from the airport.


Porsche may swap out the turbo, but I agree that the diesel Macan will almost assuredly use the 3.0 TDI as a base. I mean, what else would they use? I highly doubt that they'd be designing their own diesel engine so it makes the most sense to just tweak an existing design to fit their goals.

On the hybrid, it's interesting that Porsche got the change first, but I suppose the Touareg hybrid was a total flop (too expensive, I'm sure) and so the Cayenne's the only platform sibling still on the market with there not being a Q7 hybrid.


Sorry, I meant that as "VAG going in a different direction [with their hybrid than the competitors]", as in this isn't your typical hybrid and so might not show up on as many people's radar due to some being anti-hybrid due to the more-sluggish economy-oriented version, without taking note that this is a different design. Just one of several reasons I expect we don't see many hybrids running around.


At least we've got the Tesla D design and possibly others to help get some info on how the "separate motors" works for AWD. I'd be a little worried about the performance, but with smart engineers and time I'm sure any kinks will be worked out and it'll at least be almost as good, at least for most of us (I don't need the full power of Torsen with my mostly on-road driving, I just always like to be overprepared).


To be honest, despite all the Volt hate I liked how Chevy set it up with the electric drivetrain and the gas "generator". Most hybrids have been trying to run gas drivetrains with electric motors and I'm sure there's a lot of efficiency losses there. And of course the Volt was set up as an electric car with petrol backup, so you have the longer range if you need it until electrics have come along enough to be "there" on range.


Yeah, it's interesting to see the stuff that they put into their racing programs and high-level sport concepts. Especially if they're actively racing something like TDI or hybrid (and winning!) that shows how much design and commitment there is to the powertrain.

Whenever we end up going "all-hybrid" or all-electric or whatever, I at least expect I can trust VAG to do it right.

Q5 TDI

While I don't fall into the Volt "hate" category, I wouldn't buy one either, so I guess that doesn't make me a fan. My wife owned a Prius - she now has an A3 TDI - speaking from experience, there may be inefficiencies but 500 miles on a ten gallon tank, using regular no lead, and finding fuel anywhere and everywhere has it's advantages.

Unfortunately they're flat boring to drive, don't have enough acceleration to get out of it's own way, and are better suited to warmer climates. Cold weather driving severely lessens the electric output, using more fuel, and drops the MPG to pretty average small car MPG numbers that can be attained by non-hybrids.

I could never figure out why Chevy took a path building their Volt that no one else seemed interested in. I won't bash Chevy but their reputation building "leading" technology hasn't been good - remember the diesels they released in Cadillac's that were self destructing little time bombs, due to being poorly engineered…

Performance hybrids are a completely different driving experience from a Prius, but I'm not convinced the drivetrain complexity required is a worthwhile tradeoff compared to a performance non-hybrid.

ferenc

interesting comparison! what are your criteria for choosing?

my wife just started driving a 2015 q5 hybrid - premium unleaded is much more readily available and cheaper than diesel, and the hybrid's performance is more than adequate.

the only small drawback is that there is no spare tire.

welcome to the bay area, where we love hybrids!

ferenc
ps audi built the hybrids to prove they could :-)

Hockeymonkey

I guess the biggest turn off for us was the unknown with the hybrid battery, It is warrantied for 8 years. Then I demanded to understand what the price of a new battery plus install would cost me. That was the big unknown. Dealer had to make phone calls to Audi and then came back with a price somewhere between $10 to $15k. Dealer also said obviously the trade will be worth less as you get closer to the 8 year mark and the huge unknown with the battery. Now I am sure the costs will come down in the future but did not want to take the chance. Plus the TDI was awesome when we drove it in comparison.

tisi_03

I just now read the input from MP4. Very interesting. I feel that the function of a forum is to help people out on decisions whether it's repairing something or buying something. I wouldn't rip somebody for buying any Q5, period. I wasn't interested in a hybrid but that doesn't mean I can't learn something about them and experiences other people have had with them. I joined this forum to try and help people with my experiences but to also learn something from them. I learned something about the Q5 hybrid today.

MP4.2+6.0

No remorse by my wife on the Hybrid, the primary driver. She really likes it, and actually has been kind of luke warm on my various Audi sedans that tend to have the performance motor flavor. She likes higher up too, more so with the now incessant traffic here and so many other SUVs and tall cars to try to see around. Plenty of power in the real world, especially with the mess SF Bay Area has become--second worst metro area in the US now. But, no that doesn't mean its a Range Rover Sport either. That's approaching my W12 zone but with performance SUV rather than sedan dynamics. But again thats more power than you can use--and gas money to go with it--98% of the time around here. 3.0T realistically would probably do it for the real world conditions here for yet more pep. Hybrid is deceptive though, because for the first 10+ seconds the electric motor layers on top of the gas as a "performance hybrid" design and thus puts out a whole lot of torque--you can see it if you look at the max torque ratings, and it's there when you push it some. Only on the Autobahn (did that w/ it) or pulling a decent weight trailer have I really run through the timer on that extra oomph dual power boost function.

About zero concerns about the battery pack FWIW. And frankly even if it totally crapped out, it would still be essentially a 2.0T. As stated, it has an extended warranty on it already. As a Hybrid actually, they seems to get some extra attention at the dealer relative to what I normally see--more like my A8 (W12) experience than my prior A6 (V8) experience, and all at the same dealer (Rector). Little oddities you find out too for the better, like no CA smog checks for Hybrids (ever), unlike any of the other motor flavors.

Drive it (maybe several motor flavors) and decide. And even if we're satisfied already, don't overlook 3.0T either if you want to step up the performance somewhat.

imdakine1

I didn't even consider a hybrid and love my 2014 Q5 TDI. In my opinion you would love the TDI a lot.

ferenc

I, too, appreciate the posted data on one's experience vs. just the reinforcement of one's choice -)

My wife, almost the sole driver of the Q5 hybrid, tends to multitask, thus making last minute decisions on if and how to get from point A to point B, often without even a warning - much less planning. The other drivers seldom anticipate her actions and rarely acquiesce to her oft voiced ownership of the road. This results in a harsh driving experience, where before one's eyes, not only one's life tends to flash, but also the view of impending danger. Even though she did not want the safercar.gov 5* ML series, the Q5's handling, suspension, and safety factors are called upon. To go off OP's topic further, the ride in no way compares to being in the back seat of Haas' Rolls, chauffeured as a high school student down Burlingame's Broadway, but is much better than that of a Lexus hybrid she recently test drove.

Thus, on her previous car (donation suggestions to any charity concern but that insipid 'cars for kids' welcome), we greatly benefited by buying Costco Michelins, and 'lifetime' shocks, struts, and especially brake components. I don't recall what the factory warranty and 'Audi Care' will cover for the same items, but it is hoped that at least the MPG will no longer be on the low end of the EPA range, thanks to hybrid technology.

Too early to really tell, but I'm hoping for a (long and) happy life, with a happy ...
Ferenc
PS To cover myself I should not ignore the Fairness Doctrine: "Don't drive like my husband" one can hear her Click and Clacking :-)

imdakine1

@mp4.2+6.0 I'd love to hear more about the Q5 hybrid vs Lexus (sub) hybrid since I live in Santa Cruz and have seen a lot of the Lexus Hybrid SUVs between in the Bay Area as well as in Monterey/Carmel. My understanding is the Lexus suv hybrid lacks any rising capacity if this is something someone needs etc...?

My wife and I are total Audi and Subaru fanatics as most of Santa Cruz are Subaru fans! We've got one of each in our driveway.