Alpha6-27Tango(jeff)

Is a full stage 3 (450 crank HP) a reality for Tiptronic 2.7T's, or a silly pipe dream? I actually have a '02 A6, but Stage 3 Tip owners are hard to find in the A6 world, so figured I could find more real-world data here. Keep in mind I could sell my car for $5-10K, and RS6's run about $25K for one with similar or less miles than my current A6.

One quick request - Please only post if own a Stg 3 Tip or have direct experience with someone who does. These posts have a way of turning into a general discussion about people's "feelings" on big horsepower behind a manual vs automatic. I know that conversation well, and understand the crank/wheel power differences, launching differences, etc, so what I'm really looking for is real-world experience with the following:

* First, is it even worth it for what it cost you? Keep in mind I'm already Stg 2+ on the APR platform (plus Piggy DPs). The alternative for me is getting a C5 RS6, although they're getting hard to find, and maintenance can be considerably more than the C5 A6. My biggest fear with the RS6 is buying someone else maintenance nightmare. I've owned my A6 for 80% of it's life, and know it's been driven nicely and well-maintained. That seems like a big gamble looking at 8 year old RS6's.

* Transmission performance - Did you apply any mods to your transmission to handle the new power, and if so, does it affect daily driver performance? My wife needs to drive the car occasionally, so hard shifts at low RPM would probably be a deal-breaker. Are your shifts still pretty crisp at 80%+ throttle? I don't have a tip chip on my Stg 2+ A6, and I'm not comfortable shifting under full throttle as the shifts seem pretty "lazy".

* Maintenance Changes - Any change to your maintenance schedule to help the car deal with the new power? I had my transmission fluid changed by a trusted high-end indy @ 50K, and will be doing it again soon(some people don't believe in fluid changes for Audi transmissions, see sig link for details)

* Fuel economy differences - Some people will laugh at this one, but it matters over the long run! This car will continue to be for long road trips and daily driving, and if running Stg 3 is going to drop me down to 14 city/18 Hwy, I might as well go for the RS6. This is obviously the lowest on my list of considerations, but still something I'm curious about.

Hope to hear from some happy & healthy Stg 3 Tip owners! I defaulted to Audiworld, but if there's a more active forum for B5 S4 users, please let me know.

Thanks,

- Jeff

twv5004

As a mid stage 3 build tip, lemme tell you save your money, I blew out my clutch packs in the tip and was faced with these options, swap in a used tip trans for a grand, get a fully built for stage 3 tip for 5 grand, or swap in a 6 speed for 2300........ I went option 3 bc I never Wana deal with the night mares that came with the tip, it's like playing Russian roulette with your tune one day you never know when, mine was smooth and showing no signs of wear when it died, and by died I mean nightmare, was going 45 ish threw a turn came out and went to hit the gas **** picked up and then just lost it, rpms went redline in a second and I had no more acceleration so I had coast n push it the last few blocks, apon finding the burnout clutch packs I decided to cut my tip losses and swap it out already, if this had died far away from home I'd be at some shops mercy, u can't just swap these like u can when you fry a clutch, tips were not made to go stage 3 with out major upgrades which far outweigh the swap, ps I was also averaging 11mpg city in ny but I drive very spirited, I have no experience with the built tip trany but the upgraded torque converter didn't help or help very long lol it's not a matter of can it handle it, just for how long, if you don't mind spending 5plus grand on a custom transmission that may or may not last 10k miles and be faced with another rebuild I'd say go for it and have fun I i wish I could have but I don't Wana have to deal with the tip failing again and getting stuck with that bill again, as for how my car was before the nightmare started, well it was a dream, smooth shifts, and it even was crisp at wot shifting at 6500rpms, by no means am I saying it can't be done or it shouldn't be, it just is expensive as hell and you'll always have that little black cloud hanging over, not worth it in my opinion

complacentsee

I average around 12-14 MPG on my stage 3 tip.

EPL stage 3. 52# injectors. W/M injection.

I really can't recommend doing it.

Alpha6-27Tango(jeff)

Wow, thanks for the honesty guys. Throughout you time on the Audiworld forums, do you know anyone else with Stg 3 tips? Sounds like I should probably hold out for the RS6, however that's almost a tougher sell with the wife than the upgrades since she really has no idea what's under the hood!

Even though I know the maintenance on the RS6 is expensive, I'm starting to think it would be a more consistent experience. Although the biggest complaint I see on the RS6 forums is the transmission, so that's a little scary.

Thanks again guys.

- Jeff

complacentsee

I can think of probably 7-10 given enough time. Most have ended in poor fashion.

A few of them were L10ers. VRlife, Skydrive, BLK01S4. Most of which blew up.

517 build a couple that are still going if I remember correctly.
Me and MrPeterParker are running that TC with EPL tunes.

Apesco5

Im picking mine up thursday so i guess i'll let you know after break in.

Alpha6-27Tango(jeff)

Just a quick reply on this for the next guy with a similar question. Sounds like 517 is your best bet, and I spoke directly with one of the owners. Obviously I don't have any tangible evident at this point, but from our conversation and a little history he provided on why he started 517, sounds like there's a pretty solid company with a very realistic view of what you need for a high-power tiptronic.

Quick rundown of their (abbreviated) 2.7T Tip offerings:

If you're Stage 2 or Stage 3-minus (no fuel system upgrades) you can get away with just the TC and valve-body upgrades. This is roughly $1500 including shipping, and he HIGHLY recommended you do this BEFORE you install your Stg 2 software or K04s. Don't do it after you already slipped your clutch-packs.

If you're Stage 3 (full software & fuel system upgrades) you'll need to go with the full rebuild. This is about $4500 including shipping (I estimated shipping from the west-coast, so if you're closer it will be less). This includes upgraded TC, valve-body, clutch-packs, and a host of other items that support the massive pressure increases in cramming fluid through your trans with 500+lb/ft of torque behind it.

Long story short, he used to manage a shop for a company that does very similar upgrades, but realized they were operating at the "level" he expected, so he decided to open his own shop (a not so subtle hint on the previous company ;-)

I'd love to hear from anyone who's had a solid experience with 517. If I decide to go the upgrade route, they would be the only shop I'd consider at this point.

As for my decision to go C5-RS6 or upgrade my current A6, I'm really tore. Honestly, I fired up the Stg 2+ software and did a few spirited runs out in the country and realized at about 120mph on a nice little two-lane highway that this car is already pretty quick. I'm thinking the decision to upgrade (or not) will come when either the turbos or trans fail, and I'm forced to decide on continuing to invest in this car, or selling it and moving to the C5-RS6.

- Jeff

goohead

hi im a stage 3 tip w/ full 517 build and tc what do you want to know in detail?

will your tip hold stage 3? yes but it will eventually wear out your e clutch pack if your rought w it. search my name for pics of what it looks like and how it cones under excess load

recommend sam @ 517, very helpful stand up guy. the valve body, and rebuild will help you hold the stage 3 power for quite a while, but if you beat on it daily expect it to let go sooner. if you watch your 3-4 shift it should hold for a very long time, as the other clutches seem to do ok. if you can get your tuner to code your ecu to drop boost like 500rpm before that shift and rebuild boost right after, you should be able to run stg 3 for a long time/ same as stock, if you have a valve body installed to run higher line pressure, to quicken the shift and reduce the engage time between the shift.

if you really want to eliminate this problem a rebuild will not work you need to manufacture a new drum to put in more friction plates, steels, and a 2nd apply plate at the other side. (e clutch has only 1 apply plate on the engage side)

raybestoes make a zpak which is a 1 sided clutch pack and steel in 1 to resist coning due to excess pressure, but my steels were even bent, which leads me to think this will not help as
1)you have just 1/2 the amount of friction used in that clutch set
2)will cone anyways
3)they will not make for our application

if a 2nd thick apply plate is made to fit in that drum, it should elimate some of the conning or if the drum was machined to have a flat surface on the inside lip, but i dont know if this is possible. Either way you need more room to make the drum work. If you want you can ask if 517 will be willing to find a supplier to get some custom drums made, alot of domestic guys do it, as i have to buy a billet one for my th400.

all in all a valve body/increase line pressure/shorter shift time and easy on the 3-4 shift you will prob be ok if your trans is ok to begin w/ thats prob why they recommend a rebuild, since your e clutch is already coned somewhat, maybe not, idk

as far as companies, I would recommend 517, cant say much about the other ones lvl10 and ipt as others have had bad experiences w them from what i read so i would not deal with them

prob more info than you needed. hope that helps