Lago Blue

Winters not half over yet, but the days are at least getting longer.

During a recent road-trip to Toronto to pick-up some bargain replacement Hakka's, gave me some hours (& a reason!) to be day-dreaming about springs & things.

Even with the tall OEM spec. winter tires & OEM springs, the B4 on the Trans-Canada is a plenty rough & noisy ride at times (despite all new front suspension bushings) due to pot-holes & tar strips (womp-Womp, womp-Womp, etc.), glad for all the suppleness I've got, but still wanting more on this particular trip...

...How can I get some? I've been told by some that lowering their car gave them better handling (I've also read that the opposite may in fact be true!) & theoretically lowering should result in better gas mileage as well, but something (my butt, actually) is telling me to not sacrifice suspension travel & comfort; and my hands (on the CQ) are telling me that the steering feels better the more I raise the nose towards making the car sit level, hence this post. I welcome your thoughts. Thanks.

...& thanks in advance to all, whose photos & posts I've borrowed & referenced for this.

Lago Blue

...from the good ol' Mitchell Repair CD:

Not just with Bilsteins, apparently: This has been talked about here before, but I hadn't heard of this torque spec. change (Note: with the OEM Boge's here, I'm assuming):

Factory reco'd increase in strut-tube gland-nut torque to 200Nm from 140Nm (for "90" series).

"TSB # 94-01 Date; Aug 01, '94.

Models:
'93: 90S, 90CS &
'92-'93: 100S, 100CS, S4

Condition: Lower end of strut insert moves in strut housing when steering wheel is turned.

Production: Strut cap nut torque increased starting:
VIN 8C_PA228515 (90S, 90CS models); &
VIN 4A_PN001686 (100, 100S, 100CS models)

Service: If clunking noise is heard while turning steering wheel:
-Torque strut cap nut to:
200 Nm ((90S, 90CS Models)
240Nm (100, 100S, 100CS Models)."

Certainly, with proper care, cleanliness, Loc-Tite & a torque wrench, I believe an increase to this figure is probably not necessary, but Audi recognized this as an OEM issue & it's nice to know the parts are that strong. My suggestion would be, if the car is winter driven, after assembly as suggested below, cover the bottom of the strut nut right where the exposed strut threads disappear under the nut w/ rust proofing compound to aid disassembly next time.

Other essential threads around the Topic of "Twang"...

What-else-could-be-clunking-I-hate-noises,,,

...And it's virtually guaranteed you WILL be doing it over!

Lago Blue

B3_Bilstein_wrench_mod_plus_old_mount.jpg

"May I have the envelope please?"

...And the nomination for "Best Use of an old used OEM Strut Mount in a Supporting Role" is...this!

I expect there'll be a whole lotta strut changin' goin' on what with the weather improving.

140 Nm can be a one handed operation. Photo above shows a power bar in use during removal (don't use your torque wrench until the install).

The recess in the "top" of the up-side down strut mount captures the 6 & 1/4" long steel tube, maintaining the wrench alignment & keeping the wrench teeth fully engaged in the Bilstein cap-nut. No nasty gnashed nuts!

Note also this method for holding the strut - strut base resting on bench, board's length allows them to restrain the steering arm (alternatively, on a rear strut, sandwich the hub brackets) to keep the strut from turning; without a lot of pressure on the easily crush-able strut-tube.

Made a better photo of this wrench mod in use I'd posted previously (see below).


bilstein_wrench_mod_1.jpg

Lago Blue

b3_strut_mount_lwr_dust_boot_in.jpg

Simple Solution to Some Salty Spray...

...Here is an unabashed unauthorized mod to what has quickly become both thee standard; & an old chestnut...

Thinking of the "Do no harm" doctrine, I'd be particularly interested to hear your comments.

Cause of action: Found rust on bottom of the spherical bearing races & the ball itself.

In Ontario each winter apparently, 2 million tons of road salt is spread. So no surprise, some of it ends up here. Technically, an abrasive salt-spray environment has to be the worst, & I'd really not like to have to replace my "Pro-Mounts" due to damage to the lovely miracle sphericals (sorry, couldn't resist!).

Very carefully removed the slight rust on bottom of outer race with some Navel Jelly. Protected it w/some Crown rust-proofing gel type (green can). This should not attract debris as it is not sticky. Was very careful to not go to near to the Teflon liner!

Used part of an extra blue Bilstein boot (only because I had one) to guard the underside of the mount by filling in the space between the bottom of the Pro-Mount & the top (cone section) of the Upper Spring Perch.

Probably lots of different boots would work here. In this particular case, the ID of the Bilstein boot can be carefully eased over & secured onto the underside of the Mount right where the intermediate ring (or mid-brace?) protrudes from the bottom (see light blue ring of boot-bellows mounted on underside of the strut top-mount in photos), around its' OD.

As I said before, other boots could be made to fulfill the same function (even if their ID is different) simply by adjusting their trimmed height to fit.

The vertical spring-y-ness of this boot causes it to push down & seal pretty well (but still vent air) against the cone of the upper spring perch & even accommodate the change-able tilting of the strut in use.

Hopefully, no more sand & salt spray, rust, or might there be harm done by giving moisture a place to hang out inside that boot section, hmmm...., shouldn't as it is not entirely air-tight?

Lago Blue

B3_fr_spring_-_perch_rub.jpg

B3 H&R Lowering Springs and Lower Perch ID Interference, here's the rub.

I may be opening a can of worms here but I wanted to put the springs in right side up, i.e. H&R part number right side up & soft (shallow) coils at the bottom.

At first glance I thought these were progressive type springs, but perhaps they are simply a two-rate coil?

As the soft shallow-sloping coils (about 3 of them) are fully (on the front at least) compressed as soon as I lower the car off the lift, perhaps they are there, just to ensure the (lowering type, i.e. physically shorter in use than OEM) spring doesn't fall out of place when the (Bilstein Sport equiped) strut is fully extended to its' max. (same length as OEM struts, correct?) length?

Perhaps these springs would work just as well upside-down? But again, as I originally thought these where a progressive rate spring, I wanted the softer part at the bottom to be "used" first for un-sprung weight reasons. Yes, & perhaps I do get about one coil of progressive action where the spring coil wind (pronounced "wined") changes from fine to coarse, but I now believe that it's primarily just a linear rate spring, with an attached few "dead/spacer" coils (when used on the front); or maybe "helper" coils (when this same spring is used on the rear)".

You can see (photo above) where the red spring paint is missing from rubbing on the perch inside edge of the lower perch outer lip. Hopefully, you can also see where I've taken the height of the perch's top edge down slightly; & relieved its' inside edge as well, as there is more than enough depth here to contain the spring base & not compromise the perch wall. This has eliminated contact with the OD of that first full diameter coil. The plastic isolator I made will also add clearance here.

With a deeper (taller) custom upper spring perch, who knows, perhaps I could remove the 3 bound bottom coils (what I am calling the "dead/spacer/helper" part) of these springs & lose a couple of pounds without further lowering? But I'm beginning to think I would be better served by a different spring altogether. If your beginning to think I'm trying to avoid coil-overs, you'd be correct.

Lago Blue

B4_H&Rs.jpg

...(B3 & B4 H&R Lowering Spring questions).

Front vs Rear Rates:
It makes sense that OEM CQ springs were different rates front & rear; and I've read that originally, the H&R kit for that car had different rates front & rear.

My recently purchased H&R's on the CQ are definitely all the same spring (same part#), probably not a good thing; (I used to think they were progressive, but not now).

Linear type vs Progressive (I hope I am using the correct terminology?):

As asides, I thought:

a.) It is interesting that rubber bushings (including "Pro-Mounts" & "Mount-Savers" I believe) & pneumatic rubber tires are all progressive, while our main springs are linear. Why this is, I have no idea: &

b.) IIRC, Mance's MS2's will allow some tuning in the above regard when I get to that point. I'm thinking I should like Pro Rally height & progressive resistance.

Anyhow...
Were the OEM B3 springs all linear? I don't know, I never had any.

I now recognize that these B4 rears (see photo above, LH pair) are of the same 2-rate style as my B3 H&R's. But notice how the fronts in this photo are linear & have no softer "helper" section! This front spring is the type of spring I think I should want for both the B3 & 4.

Why? I'm thinking as follows:

I don't know for sure if a progressively wound spring would be either technically better handling; or offer a superior (more comfortable) ride, but perhaps more importantly...

-With my current H&R's on the B3, I may have less working suspension, (less available travel) before I get to dead solid (no air left between any coils, not a good thing!) than I would with a spring that gives me the same ride height, but has no already dead (solid) "helper" section to start with. I wouldn't mind stiff springs at the top end of travel, if I could have soft on the bottom (literally). I did read an expression somewhere (Colin Chapman?) that sums up what I'd like to have: "Lightly sprung & heavily damped." If I could be permitted to Canadian-ize that just a bit to read: As lightly sprung as possible, under the circumstances (just slightly lowered) and heavily damped, thank you.

-Perhaps I should want a spring made from an OEM B4 Front spring to use on my B3; or a H&R B4 Front as pictured above; or a Cadillac one, as Tim O'Neil uses? Oh, talk about air in my springs, how about All-Road adjustable pneumatic ones (see below) anybody?



www.audiworld.com/tech/pics/wheel57_13.jpg

Which leads me to...

CvTech

hard core spring compressors.

Lago Blue

-How did that work out (please see link below)?

I'm hoping you have some further news about this experiment...

-How does the rate of the B4 & UrS4 front springs compare (numbers wise & your driving experience please) with the B3 OEM's & H&R's?

-Can you tell us what lengths you found necessary to make this work?

-Do you leave the pig-tail alone on the top end of the spring, shorten the spring on the bottom, & ignore the removed lower pig-tail?

-On which Buick LeSabre's / Cadillac Fleetwood's might I find suitable donor springs, when I'm scouring the junk yards?

-Do I want to look for Buick / Cadillac fronts or rears or both?

Thanks in advance.

B4 Sprung CQ

Lago Blue

Main Spring Plastic Isolators

(Ok, kind of like day or two old doughnuts sort of tough, maybe; and actually only one so far!)

Material: made from 1/8" thick urethane (I think!) sheet, from
truck mud-flap/fender flare combo things (NLA!) from Canadian Tire.
(product # 41-8852-6), Extra Long 12" x 47.5". Clearance price: $11.93

Sorry below link doesn't yet function either. IIRC, I've also seen these called "Long-Johns" by Xcel Mfg.

Also by: U-Improve-It, Mud-Gaurds / Fender Flares

No.34070-Black or 34071-white
Xcel Manufacturing Group (Windsor) Ltd.
Windsor Ont. N9C 1K2; &
Winston Mfg., Birmingham, MI 48009

Apparently "Will Not Tear, Crack or Fade"
Yah well you can't hardly drill or cut it either!

Of course as for Shore hardness & compliance numbers, I have no idea. The other reason I think this is even actually urethane is, that after a month on the car, it not only hasn't been destroyed in this rough neighbourhood, it's virtually untouched.

Yes, this one single piece (just an experiment) took for-EVER to make, while the OD is round, the ID is certainly not (this 1st one kind of scroll shaped to fit the floor of the lower spring perch, and these are big holes to make in something that clearly doesn't want to be holed! Thirteen more to go!

Getting the "Tim-bit" out of the centre of these triple chocolate glazed is the biggest part of the job. Oh for a couple (an upper & a lower) of OEM perch OD/ID combo punches like Mance's friend could make! Ah, why am I doing this again (...he says plaintively, covered in thousands of pieces of chipped plastic, "Damn that static cling!")? Because Mance said it was a good thing! Oh, ok.

They'll raise the car a ¼ inch in total, which will be great for my winter car, & I'm certainly happy to raise the nose of the CQ (summer car) that much & no more metal to metal movement, or the resulting paint damage & corrosion. I do see a quite a few cars in the garage for spring replacement due to corrosion-caused spring failures.

I also suspect that these isolators will also prevent the upper perch from ringing like a bell when struck; & a little less NV&H would be nice.

The real bonus is, though I'll still have to bend over a thousand times (literally) in front of these two cars, it will be a quarter inch less each time! In a game of inches, it all adds up you know.

Time for a coffee. Maybe if I dip that doughnut in the coffee, it would soften...

Mance on spring isolators and spring noise & wear to perch...


This (above), is my attempt to recreate Mance's lower perch photo about which he explains spring movement between blue arrows (none) vs between red arrows (always some), and particularly in the red ellipse (plenty) in the above linked to conversation.

Lago Blue

You bet, & bought used, it paid for itself after ten uses.