2002 A4 Broke for no reason (immobilizer issue)
02-15-2019, 12:49 AM
#1
AudiWorld Newcomer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2002 A4 Broke for no reason (immobilizer issue)
Been having some serious problems with my 2002 A4 Quattro 3L. Car just randomly stopped working. Basically totaled. Its a problem with electronics and everything mechanical is in excellent condition.
I am curious if any one else has had similar problems. Or what anyone else would do if they were in my situation. I appreciate any and all feedback. Also I would like to hear some feedback regarding repair service quality.
I drove my car in the morning went home and then tried to drive later and the car wouldnt work. It would start up for roughly 1 second and then shut off immediately. Through internet research it seemed to be an immobilizer issue. (Stupid pointless component imo, stops it from being hot wired)
Immobilizers are proprietary so only the dealership could work on it. Took it in and they confirmed it was the immobilizer. Long story short my car has been in the shop for 6 weeks and they don’t really know what the problem is. First they said it was the ignition coil. They ordered that from Germany and installed it and it didn’t work. The replaced some wiring and then they were convinced that the ignition coil they ordered was faulty from the factory so they ordered it again and It didnt fix it. Now I am being told the it is a faulty ECM clutch switch. I do not have much confidence they are right but whatever. They have discussed with technicians in audi Germany many times and had a field rep come in from LA. I am in Nevada. They said they are sure it is this ECM clutch switch will fix it.
Total price is $2600 for repair. Car is only worth $5,000 roughly. They are charging me for the ECM if I choose to repair. Still deciding. And one of the ignition coils 2nd one is covered under parts warranty. Why should I pay for the ignition coil? If it didn’t fix the problem. That would be like going it to repair an engine and they replace a perfectly good wheel for no reason and charge me for it. Its not my fault that they don’t know how to fix the cars they sell.
I really like this car it has great handling and the short throw stick shift is a blast to drive. Wish it had more power though. This is extremely strange and frustrating for me. I bought this car off my dad 2 years ago, so I know the vehicles entire history. It has been meticulously cared for. Regular maintenance and always serviced by dealer.
I am curious if any one else has had similar problems. Or what anyone else would do if they were in my situation. I appreciate any and all feedback. Also I would like to hear some feedback regarding repair service quality.
I drove my car in the morning went home and then tried to drive later and the car wouldnt work. It would start up for roughly 1 second and then shut off immediately. Through internet research it seemed to be an immobilizer issue. (Stupid pointless component imo, stops it from being hot wired)
Immobilizers are proprietary so only the dealership could work on it. Took it in and they confirmed it was the immobilizer. Long story short my car has been in the shop for 6 weeks and they don’t really know what the problem is. First they said it was the ignition coil. They ordered that from Germany and installed it and it didn’t work. The replaced some wiring and then they were convinced that the ignition coil they ordered was faulty from the factory so they ordered it again and It didnt fix it. Now I am being told the it is a faulty ECM clutch switch. I do not have much confidence they are right but whatever. They have discussed with technicians in audi Germany many times and had a field rep come in from LA. I am in Nevada. They said they are sure it is this ECM clutch switch will fix it.
Total price is $2600 for repair. Car is only worth $5,000 roughly. They are charging me for the ECM if I choose to repair. Still deciding. And one of the ignition coils 2nd one is covered under parts warranty. Why should I pay for the ignition coil? If it didn’t fix the problem. That would be like going it to repair an engine and they replace a perfectly good wheel for no reason and charge me for it. Its not my fault that they don’t know how to fix the cars they sell.
I really like this car it has great handling and the short throw stick shift is a blast to drive. Wish it had more power though. This is extremely strange and frustrating for me. I bought this car off my dad 2 years ago, so I know the vehicles entire history. It has been meticulously cared for. Regular maintenance and always serviced by dealer.
02-18-2019, 05:39 AM
#2
AudiWorld Super User
Based on my being around these cars, the immobilizer or the ECU are not the first place I would go unless the immo light is flashing when you try to start. You should always start simple. Did they download codes with a VAGCOM reader to eliminate things like a crank sensor? Did they troubleshoot the battery and key fob?
Last edited by lyleswk; 02-18-2019 at 05:42 AM.
02-18-2019, 11:18 PM
#3
AudiWorld Newcomer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the reply.
Yeah they checked all key fobs (I have 2) and the battery.
I am not sure about checking the VAGCOM or crank sensor. Could you provide some additional info?
At this point the service at the local dealership is ridiculous. They are saying that the ECM clutch switch failed and then shorted out the ignition reader coil. They just told me that it is a 50/50 percent chance that replacing the ECM clutch switch will fix it if it doesn't fix it they will need to get a new instrument cluster. (additional $1800). But 5 days ago they said they were confident it would be fixed after replacing the ECM clutch switch, now this instrument cluster potential issue came out of nowhere hahahaha. I still have not ordered the ECM clutch switch, since if it will be $2700 (ignition reader coil + ECM clutch switch) to fix and potentially an additional $1800. I am not sure if I wanna roll the dice on this fix, since I have very low confidence in the service department of this dealership. Worst case scenario it would be $4500 to fix a car worth $3,000 to $5,000 roughly.
Anyone have any feedback on how this dealership is doing? Its been pretty terrible so far haha. Havent even been given a loaner car even though I had one reserved and now they are saying they are all out and have no idea when I would be able to get one to me
Yeah they checked all key fobs (I have 2) and the battery.
I am not sure about checking the VAGCOM or crank sensor. Could you provide some additional info?
At this point the service at the local dealership is ridiculous. They are saying that the ECM clutch switch failed and then shorted out the ignition reader coil. They just told me that it is a 50/50 percent chance that replacing the ECM clutch switch will fix it if it doesn't fix it they will need to get a new instrument cluster. (additional $1800). But 5 days ago they said they were confident it would be fixed after replacing the ECM clutch switch, now this instrument cluster potential issue came out of nowhere hahahaha. I still have not ordered the ECM clutch switch, since if it will be $2700 (ignition reader coil + ECM clutch switch) to fix and potentially an additional $1800. I am not sure if I wanna roll the dice on this fix, since I have very low confidence in the service department of this dealership. Worst case scenario it would be $4500 to fix a car worth $3,000 to $5,000 roughly.
Anyone have any feedback on how this dealership is doing? Its been pretty terrible so far haha. Havent even been given a loaner car even though I had one reserved and now they are saying they are all out and have no idea when I would be able to get one to me
02-19-2019, 05:51 AM
#4
AudiWorld Super User
My opinion on the dealer is they are shotgunning parts, they are not troubleshooting. ECU Clutch Switch shorting out coil packs? Really? The low voltage device shorting out the high voltage device (maybe I'm not understanding what they are talking about). Oh, and by the way, my understanding is the clutch switch were bad, it wouldn't crank. My experience is dealers are good with newer cars, but aren't trained to handle older cars that don't have all of the step by step maintenance that the newer ones have. When I can't solve things on my cars, my indie(s) can usually figure it out in a matter of hours. I have never had them replace multiple parts (let alone expensive parts)...ever. The only time I had to return the car was when I had an axle back out. They thought it was just the retaining clip, but after my son drove the car a few days, it backed out again and they replaced the axle. I would run away from them..
As to your problem:
1) VAGCOM is the Audi specific code reader that will tell you what faults the car has thrown. If the crank sensor is bad, it will tell you (G28 sensor)
2) After rereading, you didn't say whether your immobilizer light flashes. Does it flash?
3) Did they try to resync the keys? Keys can drop sync even though the batteries are fine. Keep in mind syncing and alarming are separate functions in the keys.
turbo or w261, you guys have any thoughts?
3)
As to your problem:
1) VAGCOM is the Audi specific code reader that will tell you what faults the car has thrown. If the crank sensor is bad, it will tell you (G28 sensor)
2) After rereading, you didn't say whether your immobilizer light flashes. Does it flash?
3) Did they try to resync the keys? Keys can drop sync even though the batteries are fine. Keep in mind syncing and alarming are separate functions in the keys.
turbo or w261, you guys have any thoughts?
3)
02-19-2019, 07:36 PM
#5
AudiWorld Newcomer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Awesome thanks again for your feedback it is extremely helpful! Yeah I really have no confidence in this dealers repair abilities. The clutch switch doesn't make any sense to me to be the problem. Yes the car does crank and the engine starts up but then shuts off after roughly one or two seconds. So the clutch is engaged and the computer/starter can sense it, even when the immobilizer was broken it wouldn't start unless the clutch was engaged. I also have absolutely no understanding as to why the instrument cluster could be bad as well.
Unfortunately, I don't recall if there were any lights indicating the immobilizer. This happened two months ago and i forgot to take any picture or videos of it. I remember it said "Service!" on the small screen on the instrument cluster. When this happened I figured it would be a relatively simple fix for the shop maybe a few days to fix and less than $500 dollars. I would never have guessed it would have been in the shop for 6+ weeks and counting with a potential tab of $4,400. From my initial research on the issue all clues pointed to an immobilizer issue and from what I saw this can only be worked on by Audi dealers since it is proprietary components and codes etc. The shops I called said they couldn't work on this issue for that reason. Also the ECU when ordered is non refundable so I am in a tricky situation at the moment and not sure if I want to commit to this fix.
Here is a copy/paste from the latest email they sent me regarding the repair:
I’m writing this email to inform you that we have verified an internal issue with the ECM ( engine control unit ) The ECM will not identify the Key, triggering the anti theft system. My Technician is currently recommending replacement of the Engine Control unit, parts and labor $1781.10, Currently we are in to the vehicle parts and labor $819.75. The part is coming from Germany listed at 7-10 business days for shipping. The engine control unit once ordered is a nonrefundable part as it is ordered specifically for this vehicles VIN. From our previous conversations We have stated that there is a chance we may need to replace the Instrument cluster as well because communication of the instrument cluster cannot be determined without replacement of the ECM. IF the Instrument cluster has to be replaced it would add an additional $1500.00 to the repair, which includes the part, programing, and labor.
ECM - Clutch Switch: Please p/a ecm Item Description The clutch switch is a component of the ignition system. It communicates with your ignition switch allowing you to start the car only after the clutch has been fully depressed. Reason If faulty you vehicle may be allowed to start with the clutch not engaged and with the transmission still in gear. This may cause the vehicle to jump forward or reverse during starting.
Got a few more questions.
What do you mean by indie?
What would you do if you were in my situation?
Do you think I should get my only VAGCOM and check the code myself?
I believe that keys are synced but I am not sure. They said that they couldn't get the keys to communicate to the car, so I guess that probably means they are out of sync. Since I tried to start with 2 full keys as well as the valet key, it seems odd that both keys could lose sync at the same time right?
Thanks!
Unfortunately, I don't recall if there were any lights indicating the immobilizer. This happened two months ago and i forgot to take any picture or videos of it. I remember it said "Service!" on the small screen on the instrument cluster. When this happened I figured it would be a relatively simple fix for the shop maybe a few days to fix and less than $500 dollars. I would never have guessed it would have been in the shop for 6+ weeks and counting with a potential tab of $4,400. From my initial research on the issue all clues pointed to an immobilizer issue and from what I saw this can only be worked on by Audi dealers since it is proprietary components and codes etc. The shops I called said they couldn't work on this issue for that reason. Also the ECU when ordered is non refundable so I am in a tricky situation at the moment and not sure if I want to commit to this fix.
Here is a copy/paste from the latest email they sent me regarding the repair:
I’m writing this email to inform you that we have verified an internal issue with the ECM ( engine control unit ) The ECM will not identify the Key, triggering the anti theft system. My Technician is currently recommending replacement of the Engine Control unit, parts and labor $1781.10, Currently we are in to the vehicle parts and labor $819.75. The part is coming from Germany listed at 7-10 business days for shipping. The engine control unit once ordered is a nonrefundable part as it is ordered specifically for this vehicles VIN. From our previous conversations We have stated that there is a chance we may need to replace the Instrument cluster as well because communication of the instrument cluster cannot be determined without replacement of the ECM. IF the Instrument cluster has to be replaced it would add an additional $1500.00 to the repair, which includes the part, programing, and labor.
ECM - Clutch Switch: Please p/a ecm Item Description The clutch switch is a component of the ignition system. It communicates with your ignition switch allowing you to start the car only after the clutch has been fully depressed. Reason If faulty you vehicle may be allowed to start with the clutch not engaged and with the transmission still in gear. This may cause the vehicle to jump forward or reverse during starting.
Got a few more questions.
What do you mean by indie?
What would you do if you were in my situation?
Do you think I should get my only VAGCOM and check the code myself?
I believe that keys are synced but I am not sure. They said that they couldn't get the keys to communicate to the car, so I guess that probably means they are out of sync. Since I tried to start with 2 full keys as well as the valet key, it seems odd that both keys could lose sync at the same time right?
Thanks!
02-20-2019, 09:06 AM
#6
AudiWorld Super User
turbo or W261, you guys have any input or is what I'm saying good input.
First, the key does not communicate with the ECM, it communicates with the immobilizer. See below for a dissertation that I would take to the dealer along with a tow truck (these guys don't know what they are doing in my opinion) and then ask for the general service manager or dealer service manager. The ECM controls the engine based on various sensors like the clutch sensor, temp sensor, knock sensor, cam position sensor, O2, etc etc.
https://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/i...lacement-tips/
What do you mean by indie? Independent service shop that specializes on VW / Audi.
What would you do if you were in my situation? See above...
Do you think I should get my only VAGCOM and check the code myself? Not necessarily, they should have done that. But, it does give you good perspective when you have an issue like this even if you never turn a wrench on the car.
I believe that keys are synced but I am not sure. They said that they couldn't get the keys to communicate to the car, so I guess that probably means they are out of sync. Since I tried to start with 2 full keys as well as the valet key, it seems odd that both keys could lose sync at the same time right? Missed that both keys lost sync, so that would point to the immobilize.
First, the key does not communicate with the ECM, it communicates with the immobilizer. See below for a dissertation that I would take to the dealer along with a tow truck (these guys don't know what they are doing in my opinion) and then ask for the general service manager or dealer service manager. The ECM controls the engine based on various sensors like the clutch sensor, temp sensor, knock sensor, cam position sensor, O2, etc etc.
https://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/i...lacement-tips/
What do you mean by indie? Independent service shop that specializes on VW / Audi.
What would you do if you were in my situation? See above...
Do you think I should get my only VAGCOM and check the code myself? Not necessarily, they should have done that. But, it does give you good perspective when you have an issue like this even if you never turn a wrench on the car.
I believe that keys are synced but I am not sure. They said that they couldn't get the keys to communicate to the car, so I guess that probably means they are out of sync. Since I tried to start with 2 full keys as well as the valet key, it seems odd that both keys could lose sync at the same time right? Missed that both keys lost sync, so that would point to the immobilize.
02-23-2019, 06:16 AM
#7
AudiWorld Super User
Troubleshooting is the applied art of using logic plus technical understanding of the malfunctioning device, to home-in on the problem. Lyleswk calls your dealership's approach "shotgunning" and that fits. It sounds like they are clueless and guessing at your expense. "Ignition coils", "clutch switch", "new ECM", "instrument cluster". My worry is that their incompetence will lead you to dump the car out of frustration. Lyleswk is also correct that the car needs to be at an independent Audi shop with real technicians.
I don't know much about the immobilizer, but I would be surprised that when activated, the engine would crank then begin to start. I would assume the starter would not be activated at all. If it does actually crank, fires but then quits, I'd start with the fuel pump.
Trending Topics
02-24-2019, 05:05 PM
#8
You really gotta find a good independent service shop. I'm inclined to not dump on dealers, but I had such a bad experience there a couple of years ago. They really insulted my intelligence. It was so bad. I would only use them for warranty work. Don't get me started!
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
camster4000
S4 (B6 & B7 Platforms) Discussion
2
09-12-2007 10:43 AM
BiZzAro ThAi
S4 / RS4 (B5 Platform) Discussion
2
08-13-2003 04:17 PM
absentme
A6 / S6 (C5 Platform) Discussion
2
04-05-2001 05:30 AM
TASTT
TT (Mk1) Discussion
2
03-01-2001 09:13 AM