Permanently disable pre-sense?
03-20-2018, 05:12 PM
#12
AudiWorld Senior Member
I have two B9 S5 models, with the same options. In identical settings, one is more sensitive to false positives than the other.
There is clearly some variation in the calibration of the system as they come out of the factory. Or perhaps more accurately, when they are delivered to the customer. Unfortunately, I doubt the pre-delivery work includes checking pre sense calibration. It should. The camera holder on the windscreen is specifically mentioned, at least in my manual, as being subject to misalignment due to impacts or damage, which affects pre sense city performance.
There is clearly some variation in the calibration of the system as they come out of the factory. Or perhaps more accurately, when they are delivered to the customer. Unfortunately, I doubt the pre-delivery work includes checking pre sense calibration. It should. The camera holder on the windscreen is specifically mentioned, at least in my manual, as being subject to misalignment due to impacts or damage, which affects pre sense city performance.
03-20-2018, 05:20 PM
#13
AudiWorld Super User
I was going 70mph, not kph, so as you can imagine at that speed full brakes around a banked bend is quite an uncomfortable moment.
I'll see what the dealer thinks but ultimately I agree with your article that it causes me more stress than it saves. The issue I have with a lot of these automation systems is that they're sort of pitched as AI. To me this is not AI, this is an approximation of AI. These systems aren't really thinking and making decisions based on thought + senses like a human does. These are essentially learned responses to sense data (via sensors). Humans, when they care to pay attention and not play on their phone, are actually quite capable of figuring out very complicated problems very very quickly. The brain is amazing that way! All this assistance stuff unlike the human brain is ultimately just clever computer programming. Below is an article describing reports where these systems freak out in car washes when they think the soft washing curtains are walls and end up causing actual accidents. No human or true AI would confuse a soft curtain for a hard wall, hell a healthy 3 year old child has no problem deciding if that dangling crap is a hard or soft object before they hit it.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorz.../#35cf6d5e2784
...
I'll see what the dealer thinks but ultimately I agree with your article that it causes me more stress than it saves. The issue I have with a lot of these automation systems is that they're sort of pitched as AI. To me this is not AI, this is an approximation of AI. These systems aren't really thinking and making decisions based on thought + senses like a human does. These are essentially learned responses to sense data (via sensors). Humans, when they care to pay attention and not play on their phone, are actually quite capable of figuring out very complicated problems very very quickly. The brain is amazing that way! All this assistance stuff unlike the human brain is ultimately just clever computer programming. Below is an article describing reports where these systems freak out in car washes when they think the soft washing curtains are walls and end up causing actual accidents. No human or true AI would confuse a soft curtain for a hard wall, hell a healthy 3 year old child has no problem deciding if that dangling crap is a hard or soft object before they hit it.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorz.../#35cf6d5e2784
...
I did read an article recently, but can't remember where, that suggested this "in-between" period of partial autonomy is the most dangerous. I have been reading about the new system in the D5 A8 and C8 A6/A7, and one of the key aspects is they do not use sensors in the discrete manner used currently, they provide data sets to a dedicated CPU that creates an environment map that extends for some distance all around the car. This also includes a cloud based exchange of information from other vehicles in the area and infrastructure such as traffic lights and cameras. This is going to take some time to build up critical mass, and I hope manufacturers and governments are sensible on how they let this evolve. But even with all that, I suspect the systems will still have trouble determining between a hard landing and a soft one as per your linked article.
Whilst waiting for your dealer to hopefully correct your issues, putting traction control into ESC Sport mode (one brief press on the ESC button) does at the very least partially disable pre sense. Unfortunately Audi do not say anywhere exactly what is being disabled, but you may find that easier than scrolling through the MMI menu every time to disable pre sense. ESC Sport allows some limited slip, but not too much to cause any major issues.
03-20-2018, 06:07 PM
#14
AudiWorld Member
You may be onto something. Uber has suspended its autonomous driver pilot program because one just killed someone. The can of worms has been opened. I think you are right to be skeptical of assistance systems. I am, and I think the tech is progressing too fast, or more correctly, it is being pushed on us to fast.
03-20-2018, 06:07 PM
#15
At 70mph, it should be the radar sensors that are doing the work. The camera cuts out around 85kph/53mph, although it is a distance measure, 100m/328ft that determines range). Not being done correctly in your case, unfortunately.
I did read an article recently, but can't remember where, that suggested this "in-between" period of partial autonomy is the most dangerous. I have been reading about the new system in the D5 A8 and C8 A6/A7, and one of the key aspects is they do not use sensors in the discrete manner used currently, they provide data sets to a dedicated CPU that creates an environment map that extends for some distance all around the car. This also includes a cloud based exchange of information from other vehicles in the area and infrastructure such as traffic lights and cameras. This is going to take some time to build up critical mass, and I hope manufacturers and governments are sensible on how they let this evolve. But even with all that, I suspect the systems will still have trouble determining between a hard landing and a soft one as per your linked article.
Whilst waiting for your dealer to hopefully correct your issues, putting traction control into ESC Sport mode (one brief press on the ESC button) does at the very least partially disable pre sense. Unfortunately Audi do not say anywhere exactly what is being disabled, but you may find that easier than scrolling through the MMI menu every time to disable pre sense. ESC Sport allows some limited slip, but not too much to cause any major issues.
I did read an article recently, but can't remember where, that suggested this "in-between" period of partial autonomy is the most dangerous. I have been reading about the new system in the D5 A8 and C8 A6/A7, and one of the key aspects is they do not use sensors in the discrete manner used currently, they provide data sets to a dedicated CPU that creates an environment map that extends for some distance all around the car. This also includes a cloud based exchange of information from other vehicles in the area and infrastructure such as traffic lights and cameras. This is going to take some time to build up critical mass, and I hope manufacturers and governments are sensible on how they let this evolve. But even with all that, I suspect the systems will still have trouble determining between a hard landing and a soft one as per your linked article.
Whilst waiting for your dealer to hopefully correct your issues, putting traction control into ESC Sport mode (one brief press on the ESC button) does at the very least partially disable pre sense. Unfortunately Audi do not say anywhere exactly what is being disabled, but you may find that easier than scrolling through the MMI menu every time to disable pre sense. ESC Sport allows some limited slip, but not too much to cause any major issues.
The environmental map you describe is definitely a step forward from the simple sensors. It's similar to use of LIDAR and other technologies, maybe that's what they're mapping the environment with actually. The main issue is not only the sensors, but also the "thinking" part. That's actually the real important part. Humans can use thought to resolve new problems, rather than employing solutions that were experientally learned through machine learning or response scripting. Imagine the developers never thought of a whole new type of car wash, maybe one of those laser washes with the robotic arm thing that swings around. Will the computer that's been trained through experience figure this arm out? A human can resolve this immediately, the human knows he's going into a car wash and it's a robotic arm that can't reach/hit the car. What happens when a car's sensor has a fault while it's doing something autonomous at speed? Will the driver react in time?
We've seen horrible accidents with aviation where humans stopped paying attention due to reliance on the automation. The aircraft loses sensors, i.e. pitot tubes freeze up, the computer knows something is wrong and stops making decisions. The pilots are not immediately aware and by the time they sense something is wrong they're in trouble. Then they scramble to figure out what's been happening and in the unlucky cases it ends with a crash. What's that gonna be like with a car and mere moments, maybe seconds, to think and how disconnected will the non-professional drivers be when it happens? A perfect non-distracted AI would actually be superior to the human. It would know that losing pitot tubes isn't the end of the world, it would be able to use the attitude, altitude and throttle to not stall the plane. A properly trained human can easily do this trick too, just people get distracted and in a way the quasi-AI automation can be a distraction enabler.
This is why I think the article you're referencing is right and the danger around the in-between phase is real. It's possible statistically these systems even today will be safer at scale than normal drivers, but it's not going to make people comfortable as we start to see accidents and near-misses.
You may be onto something. Uber has suspended its autonomous driver pilot program because one just killed someone. The can of worms has been opened. I think you are right to be skeptical of assistance systems. I am, and I think the tech is progressing too fast, or more correctly, it is being pushed on us to fast.
Last edited by oesman; 03-20-2018 at 06:16 PM.
03-20-2018, 06:58 PM
#16
You may be onto something. Uber has suspended its autonomous driver pilot program because one just killed someone. The can of worms has been opened. I think you are right to be skeptical of assistance systems. I am, and I think the tech is progressing too fast, or more correctly, it is being pushed on us to fast.
03-21-2018, 08:24 PM
#17
Interesting, I'll check the manual later, but I'm pretty sure it's just the warning alert. Some users get annoyed by early warnings, so I think the idea is do you want to be warned or do you want the car to warn last second and just take over if you don't react. That's how I understood that setting. Mine was set to the most delayed setting and still is.
When you say "react" do you mean ding at you or hit the brakes? Because it certainly "dings" later, but my understanding is the brake application itself (corrective action) is not changed by this.
When you say "react" do you mean ding at you or hit the brakes? Because it certainly "dings" later, but my understanding is the brake application itself (corrective action) is not changed by this.
03-22-2018, 12:21 AM
#18
AudiWorld Member
I am going to check my manual when I get home because, unless we have different system in the UK mine, and other owners, are definately stating it changes the braking sensitivty.
Having looked I think that the issue is how it is worded, you are correct in that it states 'warning time', however I can assure you that since changing mine to late I do very rarely have any times when it will give a warning then apply the brakes. Perhaps it is the manner in which the system is setup to give you a warning first and if you don't react it'll apply the brakes. So if the warning is later then the automatic apply of brakes will be later as well.
I can assure you though that since changing mine to late it did have a delayed effect on when the the system warns you then applies the brakes, as others in the UK have also stated.
With respect, the vehicle that seems to be applying the brakes randomly needs to go to a dealership and have the systems checked out.
Having looked I think that the issue is how it is worded, you are correct in that it states 'warning time', however I can assure you that since changing mine to late I do very rarely have any times when it will give a warning then apply the brakes. Perhaps it is the manner in which the system is setup to give you a warning first and if you don't react it'll apply the brakes. So if the warning is later then the automatic apply of brakes will be later as well.
I can assure you though that since changing mine to late it did have a delayed effect on when the the system warns you then applies the brakes, as others in the UK have also stated.
With respect, the vehicle that seems to be applying the brakes randomly needs to go to a dealership and have the systems checked out.
Last edited by cuke2u; 03-22-2018 at 01:12 AM.
03-22-2018, 07:00 AM
#19
I am going to check my manual when I get home because, unless we have different system in the UK mine, and other owners, are definately stating it changes the braking sensitivty.
Having looked I think that the issue is how it is worded, you are correct in that it states 'warning time', however I can assure you that since changing mine to late I do very rarely have any times when it will give a warning then apply the brakes. Perhaps it is the manner in which the system is setup to give you a warning first and if you don't react it'll apply the brakes. So if the warning is later then the automatic apply of brakes will be later as well.
I can assure you though that since changing mine to late it did have a delayed effect on when the the system warns you then applies the brakes, as others in the UK have also stated.
With respect, the vehicle that seems to be applying the brakes randomly needs to go to a dealership and have the systems checked out.
Having looked I think that the issue is how it is worded, you are correct in that it states 'warning time', however I can assure you that since changing mine to late I do very rarely have any times when it will give a warning then apply the brakes. Perhaps it is the manner in which the system is setup to give you a warning first and if you don't react it'll apply the brakes. So if the warning is later then the automatic apply of brakes will be later as well.
I can assure you though that since changing mine to late it did have a delayed effect on when the the system warns you then applies the brakes, as others in the UK have also stated.
With respect, the vehicle that seems to be applying the brakes randomly needs to go to a dealership and have the systems checked out.
I'll see what the dealer says, but overall I don't want this tech in my car anymore, it's not worked out yet even if the dealer fixes it I'll always be wondering when it will fail again and if that will kill me.
03-22-2018, 11:47 AM
#20
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Yea mine is already set on the latest setting. Had it do it again yesterday, but this time there was a car nearby at least. The car in front of me was making a left turn as I was approaching it and I guess the computer didn't figure out that the car would actually be out of my way in a few moments so it tapped on the brakes, but only for a split second.
I'll see what the dealer says, but overall I don't want this tech in my car anymore, it's not worked out yet even if the dealer fixes it I'll always be wondering when it will fail again and if that will kill me.
I'll see what the dealer says, but overall I don't want this tech in my car anymore, it's not worked out yet even if the dealer fixes it I'll always be wondering when it will fail again and if that will kill me.
I've experienced AEB twice; for a garage door that hadn't finished rising, and for a car ahead of me that was turning into a parking lot. Both times my assumption--that nothing would be in my way by the time I got there--was true. But if I had been wrong, in both cases there would have definitely been a collision, absent the AEB. That's not a failure, that's a car protecting its driver from the potential consequences of his risky decisions.
I don't doubt that there are actual failures of semi-autonomous technology, especially since it's barely out of diapers. Just wanted to point out that this particular example isn't one.