90 octane real gas vs. 93 octane Frankenfuel
08-13-2013, 07:06 PM
#11
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Can't beat a lively discussion about ethanol! Well, maybe an oil thread...
Anyway, just to be clear, my question should have been phrased, " Is the engine management system sophisticated enough to keep the engine from knocking on this slightly lower than recommended fuel" and it seems the answer is yes. My reason for not wanting ethanol is the destruction it causes to anything in the fuel system not specifically designed to stand up to it. The little bit of extra energy in it is just a bonus.
Anyway, just to be clear, my question should have been phrased, " Is the engine management system sophisticated enough to keep the engine from knocking on this slightly lower than recommended fuel" and it seems the answer is yes. My reason for not wanting ethanol is the destruction it causes to anything in the fuel system not specifically designed to stand up to it. The little bit of extra energy in it is just a bonus.
08-13-2013, 07:31 PM
#12
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Ethanol is not added to reduce emissions, it actually can raise certain emissions. It is added because the corn lobby is very powerful and the previous presidential administration was wrong to bet on ethanol as a strategy to reduce the U.S.A.'s dependence on foreign oil.
But octane is octane, just make sure to compare apples to apples (the same measuring technology). Again the dual method selected in the U.S.A. was driven by a desire to make testing twice as expensive so that compliance testing would be too expensive. Major fraud was a big issue and many States bit the bullet and now have the authority and funds to do compliance testing. Again the lobby guys with money and influence got their way.
But octane is octane, just make sure to compare apples to apples (the same measuring technology). Again the dual method selected in the U.S.A. was driven by a desire to make testing twice as expensive so that compliance testing would be too expensive. Major fraud was a big issue and many States bit the bullet and now have the authority and funds to do compliance testing. Again the lobby guys with money and influence got their way.
So the rest of the world has adopted various forms of Ethanol addition to fuel, up to and including E85, not because of emission reduction, but because the American Corn Industry is a powerful lobbyist?
Don't forget too that Ethanol has a secondary effect on emissions, which is the crop absorbs CO2 during the growth cycle, thus making Ethanol as a fuel carbon neutral
And just to reiterate - MON, which is the true Octane figure for how much work the fuel produces, is decreased by Ethanol.
I have nothing against Ethanol as a fuel, I think it is wonderful for being an alternative fuel using current engine technology.
Just don't think for a minute it is as good a fuel as petrol power-wise
The only issue with using it in cars is it's corrosive effects - it's quite a potent solvent and readily absorbs water. Zinc-plated fuel lines don't stand up to it for long (and most manufacturers use Zinc-plated fuel lines), and neither does regular rubber hoses. And don't spill the stuff on your paint either!
That's why most manufacturers (including Audi) won't rate their fuel systems beyond E10.
Stainless lines and Silicon hoses fixes most issues.
Last edited by twentysevenlitres; 08-13-2013 at 07:37 PM.
08-13-2013, 08:31 PM
#13
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Sounds a bit like a consiracy to me...
So the rest of the world has adopted various forms of Ethanol addition to fuel, up to and including E85, not because of emission reduction, but because the American Corn Industry is a powerful lobbyist?
Don't forget too that Ethanol has a secondary effect on emissions, which is the crop absorbs CO2 during the growth cycle, thus making Ethanol as a fuel carbon neutral
And just to reiterate - MON, which is the true Octane figure for how much work the fuel produces, is decreased by Ethanol.
I have nothing against Ethanol as a fuel, I think it is wonderful for being an alternative fuel using current engine technology.
Just don't think for a minute it is as good a fuel as petrol power-wise
The only issue with using it in cars is it's corrosive effects - it's quite a potent solvent and readily absorbs water. Zinc-plated fuel lines don't stand up to it for long (and most manufacturers use Zinc-plated fuel lines), and neither does regular rubber hoses. And don't spill the stuff on your paint either!
That's why most manufacturers (including Audi) won't rate their fuel systems beyond E10.
Stainless lines and Silicon hoses fixes most issues.
So the rest of the world has adopted various forms of Ethanol addition to fuel, up to and including E85, not because of emission reduction, but because the American Corn Industry is a powerful lobbyist?
Don't forget too that Ethanol has a secondary effect on emissions, which is the crop absorbs CO2 during the growth cycle, thus making Ethanol as a fuel carbon neutral
And just to reiterate - MON, which is the true Octane figure for how much work the fuel produces, is decreased by Ethanol.
I have nothing against Ethanol as a fuel, I think it is wonderful for being an alternative fuel using current engine technology.
Just don't think for a minute it is as good a fuel as petrol power-wise
The only issue with using it in cars is it's corrosive effects - it's quite a potent solvent and readily absorbs water. Zinc-plated fuel lines don't stand up to it for long (and most manufacturers use Zinc-plated fuel lines), and neither does regular rubber hoses. And don't spill the stuff on your paint either!
That's why most manufacturers (including Audi) won't rate their fuel systems beyond E10.
Stainless lines and Silicon hoses fixes most issues.
08-13-2013, 08:35 PM
#14
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Eh. I don't discount the us corn ethanol lobby, but I note that Brazil uses E100 and the automotive industry adapted quite well. In point of fact, E100 works quite well for power..13+:1 compression ratios possible, high supercharger pressure ratios, etc. range and economy maybe nt so much...
E100 is 113 octane.
Propane is 110
CNG is 130!!!!!
08-14-2013, 04:25 AM
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Different plusses and minuses. Ethanol actually has a very high octane (>>100), so in that regard it is great for your turbo car. The problem with ethanol is how it reacts with water. In small amounts (E10) i would not get too worried. OTOH, (as opposed to ETOH :-)), the E10 93 will in fact perform better in your car under high boost. Your car has a knock sensor to protect it when the fuel will per-detonate, so its not dangerous to run lower fuel, just not optimal.
Grant
Grant
08-14-2013, 04:29 AM
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As i noted above, ETOH is a great fuel, but it has a side effect, which is water absorption issues. Flex fuel cars are designed to deal with them, sorta, and to deal with the ~10%+ different power density of ETOH vs Gasoline.
There's lots of confusion in this thread (not sloop's)
Grant
There's lots of confusion in this thread (not sloop's)
Grant
Last edited by Just Me; 08-14-2013 at 04:42 AM.
08-14-2013, 04:40 AM
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There is so much confusion below that i thought i would post this
..plus a quick editorial:
You are OK with either. 93 will give you marginally better performance. The issues with E10 should be minimal in your car, especially if you don't let the as sit, get old and separate.
To one reader - yes, the rationale was clean air.
To another, yes, ETOH does substitute, to a degree, for MTBE (lead)
To a 3rd, yes octane is octane. One can covert units, except, of course, furlongs which no one understands
to all - ETOH, like brake fuild absorbs water - this is the big issue that manufacturers like Porsche are concerned about, especially in older motors. Porsche suggests < 7%. 99.99% of us ignore it for practical reasons.
THE GOOD - ETHANOL ADVANTAGES
Lower Emissions
To be sure, ethanol imparts some advantageous qualities when blended into gasoline. First and foremost are reduced emissions. These may not be so important to the average consumer (unless they are concerned about going green), but this is the advantage the EPA and environmental scientists like. Ethanol blended into gasoline at a 10-85% ratio makes fuel that produces lower levels of carbon monoxide, unburned hydrocarbons, particulate matter (another form of unburned fuel) and harmful aromatic compound emissions (which have been linked to cancer) than pure gasoline. All of these together offer positive effects on smog and pollution levels in urban areas that may have traditionally struggled with this problem. These urban areas, if they aren't concerned about their citizenry, have a financial incentive to care about the problem, because areas out of compliance with Federal air quality standards (hence, the EPA's jurisdiction applies here) can be at risk of losing access to important federal funds for the many things they use federal money to pay for.
Higher Octane
Oxygenates like ethanol and MTBE already had historical use before the 1992 Clean Air Act as octane improvers. Pure ethanol has an octane rating of 113, while E10 blends have the octane rating listed at the pump, which is usually the same as regular or premium gasoline. Unfortunately for the consumer, it is likely because, despite the ethanol additive having a high octane rating, the fuel blender uses a lower octane base gasoline in order to end up with the same octane rating in the E10 blend as they had before. So the consumer doesn't really get an added octane benefit in an E10, despite the ethanol fraction having a higher octane rating.
Renewable Fuel
Ethanol is made in the United States from corn (in Brazil it is made from sugar cane), making it a renewable fuel that reduces (somewhat) our dependence on oil imports. This is a big plus for a lot of people who want to go more "green".
Flex-Fuel Vehicles
No doubt you've heard of the "flex-fuel" vehicles. These are vehicles that have had engine modifications to enable them to run on either gasoline or a high concentration of ethanol like E85. Putting such a high concentration of ethanol in an engine that has not been modified is never a good idea - flex-fuel vehicles have special fuel sensors to properly read the ethanol-fuel mixture and special fuel injection changes to ensure the mixture isn't too rich or lean. Without these modification, the vehicle won't run right and you can very easily get a damaged engine over time.
THE BAD - ETHANOL PROBLEMS FOR CONSUMERS
Loss of Mileage
Loss of mileage from use of ethanol blends results from the ethanol molecule containing less energy value than gasoline. The energy value in petroleum fuels is a function of the number of carbon bonds in the molecule. Gasoline molecules are much longer with more carbon bonds than the small ethanol molecule, so you have less energy potential in that blended fuel. Pure ethanol has a gross BTU value 35% less than the equivalent amount of gasoline. However, most cars don't run on pure ethanol - in fact, running on higher than 15-20% ethanol concentration can cause engine damage because the engine has to be adjusted to account for the differing combustion property of that concentration.. The commonly found E10 blend only has 10% ethanol, so the actual drop in energy value is more along the lines of 3.5%-5.0%.
In October 2010, Congress will consider raising the minimum ethanol requirement from 10% to 15%. When this happens, fuel mileage drops will be even larger. 5% may not seem like that much, but consumers have already demonstrated that they are extremely price conscious and do not take any added expense lightly in this economy.
Water Attraction
Pure ethanol has a strong ability to absorb water from the atmosphere around it. This is true also of the blends made from pure ethanol and gasoline. Ethanol has such a strong attraction to water that chemical producers cannot even sell 100% pure ethanol - it is always 99.8% or less, because there will always be at least a tiny bit of water. As you may expect, attraction of water is an even bigger problem for marine users of E10-E85 than it is for on-road drivers.
When water accumulates in a fuel or storage tank, it sinks to the bottom of the tank because water is heavier than fuel. It then contributes to a whole host of fuel problems and issues, which can be summarized here:
Breeding Ground for Microbes
Microbes like bacteria and fungi all need accumulated water in order to grow and thrive in a fuel storage tank. If an infestation takes hold, problems with corrosion, filter plugging and reduction in fuel quality can follow. However, ethanol blends, like gasoline, tend to be used quicker than stored diesel fuels, so this is not so much of a problem in actual practice.
Phase Separation
Phase Separation means the ethanol 'phase' separates from the gasoline 'phase' and results in two layers of two different compounds, instead of a homogenous mixture of gasoline and ethanol. At this point the ethanol will sink below the gasoline phase and mix with any more accumulated water, giving an ethanol-water phase mixture.
Loss of Octane
When ethanol separates from gasoline, it causes a loss of 2-4 octane points in the fuel mixture; in effect, as it separates, it drags the octane value of the gasoline. An 87-octane fuel that separates can have its octane rating drop to 83-84, which is unsatisfactory for most vehicles and will cause performance issues.
Potential for Equipment Damage
An ethanol blend that has separated will have the ethanol and water mixture settled at the bottom of the tank, where the fuel line is. The fuel line potentially can suck this mixture up into the combustion chamber, where it will burn like an overly lean mixture (lean = not enough gasoline). Because it is not mostly gasoline now, burning this kind of fuel gives real potential for valve damage. This becomes an expensive proposition.
Oxidation and Deposit Buildup
Water is one of the impurities that will accelerate oxidation reactions in any petroleum-based fuel, whether gasoline, diesel, biodiesel or ethanol blends. Oxidation reactions are responsible for fuel stratification and the fallout of heavy ends from the fuel mixture. These heavy fuels can build up in the bottom of a fuel storage tank, and when they are injected as fuel, they do not burn like pure fuel but will leave deposits in all parts of the combustion system - combustion chamber, valves and fuel injectors. At best, you get raised emissions to the catalytic convertor, rough running and poor engine performance, while at worst you get a drop in mileage.
Ethanol Solvency
Boat owners in the northeast can readily testify how ethanol blends up to E85 attach and dissolve rubber and plastic parts, even fiberglass fuel tanks. Ethanol has always been an excellent solvent and unfortunately this is not a good thing for engines and fuel delivery systems which rely on rubber and plastic parts for their function. Repeated exposure over time will cause the plastic resigns to dissolve in the ethanol; they subsequently build up as new deposits on valves, causing the same kind of performance issues as carbon deposits can.
CONCLUSION
In exchange for becoming more "green", consumers face a trade off with certain problems that ethanol blends can cause in their vehicles and boats. The EPA's pending increase of ethanol concentration to 15% in all reformulated on-road gasolines will only increase these problems. Subsequently there is a substantial market for additives out there to treat ethanol blends and blunt these problems. Some of them are better than others. The best ethanol additives will contains combustion improvers to blunt the mileage drop, detergents to clean out deposits and any dissolved resin buildup, an ingredient to disperse and control water buildup sand an ingredient to protect rubber and plastic parts from ethanol solvency. Beware of products that make outrageous claims and guarantees - if it seems too good to be true (guaranteed 35% mileage increase?), it very likely is too good to be true.
FOR MORE INFORMATION
For more information on these and other fuel-related problems and solutions to those issues, visit Bell Performance on the web.
Article Source: http://ezinearticles.com/?expert=Erik_Bjornstad
Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/5153161
You are OK with either. 93 will give you marginally better performance. The issues with E10 should be minimal in your car, especially if you don't let the as sit, get old and separate.
To one reader - yes, the rationale was clean air.
To another, yes, ETOH does substitute, to a degree, for MTBE (lead)
To a 3rd, yes octane is octane. One can covert units, except, of course, furlongs which no one understands
to all - ETOH, like brake fuild absorbs water - this is the big issue that manufacturers like Porsche are concerned about, especially in older motors. Porsche suggests < 7%. 99.99% of us ignore it for practical reasons.
THE GOOD - ETHANOL ADVANTAGES
Lower Emissions
To be sure, ethanol imparts some advantageous qualities when blended into gasoline. First and foremost are reduced emissions. These may not be so important to the average consumer (unless they are concerned about going green), but this is the advantage the EPA and environmental scientists like. Ethanol blended into gasoline at a 10-85% ratio makes fuel that produces lower levels of carbon monoxide, unburned hydrocarbons, particulate matter (another form of unburned fuel) and harmful aromatic compound emissions (which have been linked to cancer) than pure gasoline. All of these together offer positive effects on smog and pollution levels in urban areas that may have traditionally struggled with this problem. These urban areas, if they aren't concerned about their citizenry, have a financial incentive to care about the problem, because areas out of compliance with Federal air quality standards (hence, the EPA's jurisdiction applies here) can be at risk of losing access to important federal funds for the many things they use federal money to pay for.
Higher Octane
Oxygenates like ethanol and MTBE already had historical use before the 1992 Clean Air Act as octane improvers. Pure ethanol has an octane rating of 113, while E10 blends have the octane rating listed at the pump, which is usually the same as regular or premium gasoline. Unfortunately for the consumer, it is likely because, despite the ethanol additive having a high octane rating, the fuel blender uses a lower octane base gasoline in order to end up with the same octane rating in the E10 blend as they had before. So the consumer doesn't really get an added octane benefit in an E10, despite the ethanol fraction having a higher octane rating.
Renewable Fuel
Ethanol is made in the United States from corn (in Brazil it is made from sugar cane), making it a renewable fuel that reduces (somewhat) our dependence on oil imports. This is a big plus for a lot of people who want to go more "green".
Flex-Fuel Vehicles
No doubt you've heard of the "flex-fuel" vehicles. These are vehicles that have had engine modifications to enable them to run on either gasoline or a high concentration of ethanol like E85. Putting such a high concentration of ethanol in an engine that has not been modified is never a good idea - flex-fuel vehicles have special fuel sensors to properly read the ethanol-fuel mixture and special fuel injection changes to ensure the mixture isn't too rich or lean. Without these modification, the vehicle won't run right and you can very easily get a damaged engine over time.
THE BAD - ETHANOL PROBLEMS FOR CONSUMERS
Loss of Mileage
Loss of mileage from use of ethanol blends results from the ethanol molecule containing less energy value than gasoline. The energy value in petroleum fuels is a function of the number of carbon bonds in the molecule. Gasoline molecules are much longer with more carbon bonds than the small ethanol molecule, so you have less energy potential in that blended fuel. Pure ethanol has a gross BTU value 35% less than the equivalent amount of gasoline. However, most cars don't run on pure ethanol - in fact, running on higher than 15-20% ethanol concentration can cause engine damage because the engine has to be adjusted to account for the differing combustion property of that concentration.. The commonly found E10 blend only has 10% ethanol, so the actual drop in energy value is more along the lines of 3.5%-5.0%.
In October 2010, Congress will consider raising the minimum ethanol requirement from 10% to 15%. When this happens, fuel mileage drops will be even larger. 5% may not seem like that much, but consumers have already demonstrated that they are extremely price conscious and do not take any added expense lightly in this economy.
Water Attraction
Pure ethanol has a strong ability to absorb water from the atmosphere around it. This is true also of the blends made from pure ethanol and gasoline. Ethanol has such a strong attraction to water that chemical producers cannot even sell 100% pure ethanol - it is always 99.8% or less, because there will always be at least a tiny bit of water. As you may expect, attraction of water is an even bigger problem for marine users of E10-E85 than it is for on-road drivers.
When water accumulates in a fuel or storage tank, it sinks to the bottom of the tank because water is heavier than fuel. It then contributes to a whole host of fuel problems and issues, which can be summarized here:
Breeding Ground for Microbes
Microbes like bacteria and fungi all need accumulated water in order to grow and thrive in a fuel storage tank. If an infestation takes hold, problems with corrosion, filter plugging and reduction in fuel quality can follow. However, ethanol blends, like gasoline, tend to be used quicker than stored diesel fuels, so this is not so much of a problem in actual practice.
Phase Separation
Phase Separation means the ethanol 'phase' separates from the gasoline 'phase' and results in two layers of two different compounds, instead of a homogenous mixture of gasoline and ethanol. At this point the ethanol will sink below the gasoline phase and mix with any more accumulated water, giving an ethanol-water phase mixture.
Loss of Octane
When ethanol separates from gasoline, it causes a loss of 2-4 octane points in the fuel mixture; in effect, as it separates, it drags the octane value of the gasoline. An 87-octane fuel that separates can have its octane rating drop to 83-84, which is unsatisfactory for most vehicles and will cause performance issues.
Potential for Equipment Damage
An ethanol blend that has separated will have the ethanol and water mixture settled at the bottom of the tank, where the fuel line is. The fuel line potentially can suck this mixture up into the combustion chamber, where it will burn like an overly lean mixture (lean = not enough gasoline). Because it is not mostly gasoline now, burning this kind of fuel gives real potential for valve damage. This becomes an expensive proposition.
Oxidation and Deposit Buildup
Water is one of the impurities that will accelerate oxidation reactions in any petroleum-based fuel, whether gasoline, diesel, biodiesel or ethanol blends. Oxidation reactions are responsible for fuel stratification and the fallout of heavy ends from the fuel mixture. These heavy fuels can build up in the bottom of a fuel storage tank, and when they are injected as fuel, they do not burn like pure fuel but will leave deposits in all parts of the combustion system - combustion chamber, valves and fuel injectors. At best, you get raised emissions to the catalytic convertor, rough running and poor engine performance, while at worst you get a drop in mileage.
Ethanol Solvency
Boat owners in the northeast can readily testify how ethanol blends up to E85 attach and dissolve rubber and plastic parts, even fiberglass fuel tanks. Ethanol has always been an excellent solvent and unfortunately this is not a good thing for engines and fuel delivery systems which rely on rubber and plastic parts for their function. Repeated exposure over time will cause the plastic resigns to dissolve in the ethanol; they subsequently build up as new deposits on valves, causing the same kind of performance issues as carbon deposits can.
CONCLUSION
In exchange for becoming more "green", consumers face a trade off with certain problems that ethanol blends can cause in their vehicles and boats. The EPA's pending increase of ethanol concentration to 15% in all reformulated on-road gasolines will only increase these problems. Subsequently there is a substantial market for additives out there to treat ethanol blends and blunt these problems. Some of them are better than others. The best ethanol additives will contains combustion improvers to blunt the mileage drop, detergents to clean out deposits and any dissolved resin buildup, an ingredient to disperse and control water buildup sand an ingredient to protect rubber and plastic parts from ethanol solvency. Beware of products that make outrageous claims and guarantees - if it seems too good to be true (guaranteed 35% mileage increase?), it very likely is too good to be true.
FOR MORE INFORMATION
For more information on these and other fuel-related problems and solutions to those issues, visit Bell Performance on the web.
Article Source: http://ezinearticles.com/?expert=Erik_Bjornstad
Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/5153161
08-14-2013, 06:48 AM
#18
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more confusion
Above the poster distinguishes MON from RON by energy density vs knock resistance. From what i read this is not the difference at all, only that MON is at a higher rpm and utilizes engine management dynamic changes within the test method.
They both measure knock resistance and (in the case of MON) resulting engine output.
But they have similar goals.
They do not scale by any consistent conversion method.
Grant
Measurement methods
Research Octane Number (RON)
The most common type of octane rating worldwide is the Research Octane Number (RON). RON is determined by running the fuel in a test http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine with a variable http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_ratio under controlled conditions, and comparing the results with those for mixtures of iso-octane and n-heptane.
Motor Octane Number (MON)
There is another type of octane rating, called Motor Octane Number (MON), which is a better measure of how the fuel behaves when under load, as it is determined at 900 rpm engine speed, instead of the 600 rpm for RON.<sup id="cite_ref-Ullmann_1-1" class="reference">[1]</sup> MON testing uses a similar test engine to that used in RON testing, but with a preheated fuel mixture, higher engine speed, and variable http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_system to further stress the fuel's knock resistance. Depending on the composition of the fuel, the MON of a modern gasoline will be about 8 to 10 points lower than the RON, however there is no direct link between RON and MON. Normally, fuel specifications require both a minimum RON and a minimum MON.<sup class="Template-Fact" style="white-space:nowrap;">[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed]</sup>
They both measure knock resistance and (in the case of MON) resulting engine output.
But they have similar goals.
They do not scale by any consistent conversion method.
Grant
Measurement methods
Research Octane Number (RON)
The most common type of octane rating worldwide is the Research Octane Number (RON). RON is determined by running the fuel in a test http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine with a variable http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_ratio under controlled conditions, and comparing the results with those for mixtures of iso-octane and n-heptane.
Motor Octane Number (MON)
There is another type of octane rating, called Motor Octane Number (MON), which is a better measure of how the fuel behaves when under load, as it is determined at 900 rpm engine speed, instead of the 600 rpm for RON.<sup id="cite_ref-Ullmann_1-1" class="reference">[1]</sup> MON testing uses a similar test engine to that used in RON testing, but with a preheated fuel mixture, higher engine speed, and variable http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_system to further stress the fuel's knock resistance. Depending on the composition of the fuel, the MON of a modern gasoline will be about 8 to 10 points lower than the RON, however there is no direct link between RON and MON. Normally, fuel specifications require both a minimum RON and a minimum MON.<sup class="Template-Fact" style="white-space:nowrap;">[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed]</sup>
Last edited by Just Me; 08-14-2013 at 06:52 AM.
08-14-2013, 06:57 AM
#19
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My comments were aimed solely at corn based ethanol mixed at 10%. This is the way almost all is marketed in the U.S.A.
Ethanol fuels elsewhere are not corn based. This use was a political decision pushed by the corn lobby.
Ethanol fuels elsewhere are not corn based. This use was a political decision pushed by the corn lobby.
08-14-2013, 08:24 AM
#20
AudiWorld Senior Member
At the risk of diverting this thread I feel it is important to at least remind people that ethanol blended fuel is much more costly than just the at the pump price, the loss of efficiency, and the additional service/maintenance costs. Between government subsidies, increase in food costs due to corn demand, and environmental "costs" in the production of ethanol the true per gallon cost of ethanol blended fuels is significantly
more than most realize.
You may want to google "true cost per gallon for ethanol based fuel" and come to your own conclusions.
more than most realize.
You may want to google "true cost per gallon for ethanol based fuel" and come to your own conclusions.