Stupid Timing Chain Tensioner Pads
04-16-2012, 04:43 PM
#21
I think you are wasting time trying to avoid work. Let's assume you can do the job without removing the timing belt and components - you will waste so much time trying to work around things that it's not worth it.
Now, back to that assumption - the cam bars are a sensitive part of the engine. Yeah they're solid, but if the timing's off a little (as you may have found), or something's wrong - you have BIG problems.
Take it apart and do it write and quit f'in around. Trying to squeeze a tensioner between the cams, if possible, is a recipe for breaking the plastic feet on the tensioner at best.
This reminds me of the time I helped a friend do a tune-up on his mini-van before I really knew what I was doing (and still don't). The instructions said, "Step 1 - remove alternator". Well, I didn't want to get inovlved in all that so I spent 3 hours tring to fit my arm where it wouldn't fit and never did get that last plug replaced.
Now that I know how to remove an alternator, I realize I could have removed that thing in 20 minutes - which beats the hell out of 3 hours of struggling. I was afraid though - and I think you're probably in those same shoes.
In your case, that fear is going to ruin your engine. Either man up or take it to someone who can do it right, and I have faith that you have all the ability you need since you've gotten this far.
Also - count the teeth between the tick marks. Just rolling the crank around is not the most accurate way of doing what you're attempting. As 4D4 has taught me, the only way to be sure is to put the crank lock pin in and count the chain links between the marks on the cams. The mark on the crank could be off just a little, or the cams could be off just a little. That's why we have tools for setting the timing, and why the tools should be used over the marks.
Still, I bet you have more damage on that bottom pad that you can't see from the top. When you're done, you'll be glad you pulled it apart and did it right.
Now, back to that assumption - the cam bars are a sensitive part of the engine. Yeah they're solid, but if the timing's off a little (as you may have found), or something's wrong - you have BIG problems.
Take it apart and do it write and quit f'in around. Trying to squeeze a tensioner between the cams, if possible, is a recipe for breaking the plastic feet on the tensioner at best.
This reminds me of the time I helped a friend do a tune-up on his mini-van before I really knew what I was doing (and still don't). The instructions said, "Step 1 - remove alternator". Well, I didn't want to get inovlved in all that so I spent 3 hours tring to fit my arm where it wouldn't fit and never did get that last plug replaced.
Now that I know how to remove an alternator, I realize I could have removed that thing in 20 minutes - which beats the hell out of 3 hours of struggling. I was afraid though - and I think you're probably in those same shoes.
In your case, that fear is going to ruin your engine. Either man up or take it to someone who can do it right, and I have faith that you have all the ability you need since you've gotten this far.
Also - count the teeth between the tick marks. Just rolling the crank around is not the most accurate way of doing what you're attempting. As 4D4 has taught me, the only way to be sure is to put the crank lock pin in and count the chain links between the marks on the cams. The mark on the crank could be off just a little, or the cams could be off just a little. That's why we have tools for setting the timing, and why the tools should be used over the marks.
Still, I bet you have more damage on that bottom pad that you can't see from the top. When you're done, you'll be glad you pulled it apart and did it right.
Last edited by jseklund; 04-16-2012 at 04:50 PM.
04-17-2012, 01:02 AM
#22
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I think you are wasting time trying to avoid work. Let's assume you can do the job without removing the timing belt and components - you will waste so much time trying to work around things that it's not worth it.
Now, back to that assumption - the cam bars are a sensitive part of the engine. Yeah they're solid, but if the timing's off a little (as you may have found), or something's wrong - you have BIG problems.
Take it apart and do it write and quit f'in around. Trying to squeeze a tensioner between the cams, if possible, is a recipe for breaking the plastic feet on the tensioner at best.
This reminds me of the time I helped a friend do a tune-up on his mini-van before I really knew what I was doing (and still don't). The instructions said, "Step 1 - remove alternator". Well, I didn't want to get inovlved in all that so I spent 3 hours tring to fit my arm where it wouldn't fit and never did get that last plug replaced.
Now that I know how to remove an alternator, I realize I could have removed that thing in 20 minutes - which beats the hell out of 3 hours of struggling. I was afraid though - and I think you're probably in those same shoes.
In your case, that fear is going to ruin your engine. Either man up or take it to someone who can do it right, and I have faith that you have all the ability you need since you've gotten this far.
Also - count the teeth between the tick marks. Just rolling the crank around is not the most accurate way of doing what you're attempting. As 4D4 has taught me, the only way to be sure is to put the crank lock pin in and count the chain links between the marks on the cams. The mark on the crank could be off just a little, or the cams could be off just a little. That's why we have tools for setting the timing, and why the tools should be used over the marks.
Still, I bet you have more damage on that bottom pad that you can't see from the top. When you're done, you'll be glad you pulled it apart and did it right.
Now, back to that assumption - the cam bars are a sensitive part of the engine. Yeah they're solid, but if the timing's off a little (as you may have found), or something's wrong - you have BIG problems.
Take it apart and do it write and quit f'in around. Trying to squeeze a tensioner between the cams, if possible, is a recipe for breaking the plastic feet on the tensioner at best.
This reminds me of the time I helped a friend do a tune-up on his mini-van before I really knew what I was doing (and still don't). The instructions said, "Step 1 - remove alternator". Well, I didn't want to get inovlved in all that so I spent 3 hours tring to fit my arm where it wouldn't fit and never did get that last plug replaced.
Now that I know how to remove an alternator, I realize I could have removed that thing in 20 minutes - which beats the hell out of 3 hours of struggling. I was afraid though - and I think you're probably in those same shoes.
In your case, that fear is going to ruin your engine. Either man up or take it to someone who can do it right, and I have faith that you have all the ability you need since you've gotten this far.
Also - count the teeth between the tick marks. Just rolling the crank around is not the most accurate way of doing what you're attempting. As 4D4 has taught me, the only way to be sure is to put the crank lock pin in and count the chain links between the marks on the cams. The mark on the crank could be off just a little, or the cams could be off just a little. That's why we have tools for setting the timing, and why the tools should be used over the marks.
Still, I bet you have more damage on that bottom pad that you can't see from the top. When you're done, you'll be glad you pulled it apart and did it right.
After researching and reading (then re-reading some) so many of the tutorials online regarding timing belt change on the Audi A6 C5, I'm quite confident that I have enough knowledge and references for me to be able to do this repair successfully.
I just purchased the camshaft alignment locking tool on eBay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Audi-A4-A...ht_2494wt_1209
I'm gonna do this right the first time. I have the luxury of taking my time about it since I bought my brother's Solara which will be my daily driver meanwhile. I've got no reason to cut corners and magnify the problem even more at this time.
Thanks for the confidence boost! I can definitely use it. :-)
Last edited by tartar; 04-17-2012 at 01:42 AM.
04-17-2012, 06:22 AM
#23
I am glad to hear it. Take it one step at a time and it won't be a big deal. It's all nuts, bolts and parts.
I think the tech write-up will get you most of the way to where you need to be. Just make sure that before you remove the timing belt, you put the engine at TDC, and insert the crankshaft locking pin that comes with the bar. This is an IMPORTANT step that people often think they can skip (like myself the first time).
In order to get to it, you'll need to remove the driver's side wheel, use a long screwdriver (flat tip) to undo the clamps around the intercooler piping, a 5 mm hex to remove 2 bolts holding the metal piping to the oil pan, and pull the piping out. I've seen some say they can get to it without removing the pipes, but I never could. It took me 2 hours just to find the plug the first time...
If you have any questions at all, come back here and someone will have the answer.
Also - you are going to have many nuts and bolts that you take out. My strategy, being bad at ordering things, is to get a bunch of zip lock bags and some pieces of paper. When I remove bolts, I put them in a bag, in a bucket, with the paper inside the bag telling me where it went. Actually, I don't even do this step- my gf is usually kind enough to do it for me when I tell her what to write on the paper. I just throw the bolts in the bag....
I think the tech write-up will get you most of the way to where you need to be. Just make sure that before you remove the timing belt, you put the engine at TDC, and insert the crankshaft locking pin that comes with the bar. This is an IMPORTANT step that people often think they can skip (like myself the first time).
In order to get to it, you'll need to remove the driver's side wheel, use a long screwdriver (flat tip) to undo the clamps around the intercooler piping, a 5 mm hex to remove 2 bolts holding the metal piping to the oil pan, and pull the piping out. I've seen some say they can get to it without removing the pipes, but I never could. It took me 2 hours just to find the plug the first time...
If you have any questions at all, come back here and someone will have the answer.
Also - you are going to have many nuts and bolts that you take out. My strategy, being bad at ordering things, is to get a bunch of zip lock bags and some pieces of paper. When I remove bolts, I put them in a bag, in a bucket, with the paper inside the bag telling me where it went. Actually, I don't even do this step- my gf is usually kind enough to do it for me when I tell her what to write on the paper. I just throw the bolts in the bag....
05-08-2012, 01:41 PM
#25
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UPDATE:
I had to wait for the camshaft locking tool and the crank locking pin tool to arrive while I was on vacation with my kids.
My problem now is with the crank locking pin tool not going all the way in somehow. I've read on another thread here where someone else ran into this same problem and had to rock the crankshaft back and forth in order to screw the locking pin all the way in. I'm gonna keep on trying til the POS finally goes all the way in where it's supposed to go.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/targuevara/7160759304/" title="_MG_4015 by Tar Guevara, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7224/7160759304_920250c574.jpg" width="500" height="333" alt="_MG_4015"></a>
Meanwhile, any input from anyone would be greatly appreciated. ;-)
I had to wait for the camshaft locking tool and the crank locking pin tool to arrive while I was on vacation with my kids.
My problem now is with the crank locking pin tool not going all the way in somehow. I've read on another thread here where someone else ran into this same problem and had to rock the crankshaft back and forth in order to screw the locking pin all the way in. I'm gonna keep on trying til the POS finally goes all the way in where it's supposed to go.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/targuevara/7160759304/" title="_MG_4015 by Tar Guevara, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7224/7160759304_920250c574.jpg" width="500" height="333" alt="_MG_4015"></a>
Meanwhile, any input from anyone would be greatly appreciated. ;-)
05-09-2012, 07:51 AM
#27
Good job! Wow - you really tore that thing apart, huh?
I did that my first time too...after that, I knew where I was working so I didn't have to do quite as much and just left the carriage attached and pulled forward....
You're getting there, good job!
I did that my first time too...after that, I knew where I was working so I didn't have to do quite as much and just left the carriage attached and pulled forward....
You're getting there, good job!
05-10-2012, 08:32 PM
#28
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I'm definitely tearing her apart! LOL! I just hope that I'm able to lift the cams out and reset the intake cam correctly to align with the "arrow" and not run into any more problems.
It's been hellish trying to get to this point with stripped screws and bolts out of the ying yang. I pray that it starts and runs after all this work!
What's your take on using Prestone's 50/50 coolant instead of the Audi G12? I've drained the radiator off during disassembly and not sure if it was G12 that was placed in there after my last TB/Water Pump/Thermostat replacement by a local indie shop around 30K+ miles ago. Will it really matter that much?
05-21-2012, 12:31 PM
#29
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UPDATE:
After many stripped cylinder head T30 Torx bolts, countless hours of disassembly and reassembly, bloody knuckles, a box of non-latex nitrile gloves, and one tub of Gojo hand cleaner, I can now say that my original problem of a broken cam chain tensioner pad has worsen into a nightmarish possibility of bent valves.
On the positive side of things, I got the engine to start after taking the driver's side camshafts out along with the cam chain tensioner and realigning the intake cam to the "arrow" marker on the first cam cap. I ended up with exactly 15 chain links in between the camshaft sprockets and they consistently lined up after many rotations of the crank shaft by hand.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/targuevara/7220842828/http://www.flickr.com/photos/targuevara/7220842828/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/targuevara/, on Flickr
It looked promising until it finally started and shook violently at idle. It seemed to run much better at higher RPMs whenever I gave it a little gas, but I didn't want to rev it up too much and cause even bigger problems.
I bought a cylinder compression tester and got the following results:
Cylinder 1 = 160-168
Cylinder 2 = 160-165
Cylinder 3 = 160-165
Cylinder 4 = 0
Cylinder 5 = 0
Cylinder 6 = 0
I made the mistake of not turning the ignition off nor disabling the fuel pump. I'm not so sure how much those two things can affect the compression results, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong here. Just for the heck of it, I decided to perform the compression test again by simply hand turning the crankshaft and got the following results:
Cylinder 1 = 60
Cylinder 2 = 60
Cylinder 3 = 60
Cylinder 4 = 0
Cylinder 5 = 0
Cylinder 6 = 0
I guess that buying a leak down tester will be my next step. Right?
I've never been this "deep" into my car's engine before. I have doubts about my own ability with tackling bent valves and/or lifters, but I'm in no way afraid to give it my best shot before I pull out the white flag.
Any ideas and tips from my Audiworld buddies would be greatly appreciated!
After many stripped cylinder head T30 Torx bolts, countless hours of disassembly and reassembly, bloody knuckles, a box of non-latex nitrile gloves, and one tub of Gojo hand cleaner, I can now say that my original problem of a broken cam chain tensioner pad has worsen into a nightmarish possibility of bent valves.
On the positive side of things, I got the engine to start after taking the driver's side camshafts out along with the cam chain tensioner and realigning the intake cam to the "arrow" marker on the first cam cap. I ended up with exactly 15 chain links in between the camshaft sprockets and they consistently lined up after many rotations of the crank shaft by hand.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/targuevara/7220842828/http://www.flickr.com/photos/targuevara/7220842828/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/targuevara/, on Flickr
It looked promising until it finally started and shook violently at idle. It seemed to run much better at higher RPMs whenever I gave it a little gas, but I didn't want to rev it up too much and cause even bigger problems.
I bought a cylinder compression tester and got the following results:
Cylinder 1 = 160-168
Cylinder 2 = 160-165
Cylinder 3 = 160-165
Cylinder 4 = 0
Cylinder 5 = 0
Cylinder 6 = 0
I made the mistake of not turning the ignition off nor disabling the fuel pump. I'm not so sure how much those two things can affect the compression results, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong here. Just for the heck of it, I decided to perform the compression test again by simply hand turning the crankshaft and got the following results:
Cylinder 1 = 60
Cylinder 2 = 60
Cylinder 3 = 60
Cylinder 4 = 0
Cylinder 5 = 0
Cylinder 6 = 0
I guess that buying a leak down tester will be my next step. Right?
I've never been this "deep" into my car's engine before. I have doubts about my own ability with tackling bent valves and/or lifters, but I'm in no way afraid to give it my best shot before I pull out the white flag.
Any ideas and tips from my Audiworld buddies would be greatly appreciated!
05-21-2012, 01:53 PM
#30
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I have no idea what this means but I am having the same compression readings and I am wondering if I have a similar problem with a cam chain tensioner. I get 200 psi on the passenger side cyls and 0 0 0 on the driver's side.
I am in the process of removing the head to replace it but I am wondering if the tensioner is the problem. I still have time to NOT remove the head.
My tensioner moves up only a tiny bit and the chain has audible slack. It clicks and then tightens. You can hear it and you can also push down on the chain and it pretty loose. I don't think it's loose enought to skip a tooth but it's for sure not quite right.
I am in the process of removing the head to replace it but I am wondering if the tensioner is the problem. I still have time to NOT remove the head.
My tensioner moves up only a tiny bit and the chain has audible slack. It clicks and then tightens. You can hear it and you can also push down on the chain and it pretty loose. I don't think it's loose enought to skip a tooth but it's for sure not quite right.