Car re-assembled
01-18-2009, 05:30 PM
#43
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I just want to say, for the record, that we're all a bunch of wanna be amateurs who
have some great aspirations as far as fixing our transmissions. A few of us may actually fix more than we screw up while digging through the transmission internals....and a few more of us may get lucky and actually succeed.
From personal experience, there's a LOT more to it than we can get out of a book. Guys like Gabor who have been through dozens of them and who have had some sort of training on how to assess all the problems inside a transmission are worth their weight in gold.
In my last go around with an A4 ZF transmission it was clear that I was in WAY over my head. With a little coaching and a spare transmission to use for reference, I MAY have succeeded in fixing the problem, but I do have my doubts. In any case, it was clear that I was in there to replace a couple parts, not to do a real rebuild or overhaul.
Small things like how to assess the o-ring seals, how to assess clutch packs, how to properly reassemble the o-ring seals & pistons without shaving a little flat spot on them, how to check clearances in each assembled clutch pack, and how to check endplay in the fully assembled trans are skills that can take time to master....or even recognize you/we need. (Damn, I don't have enough endplay. Is it because of the Vaseline I used to 'glue' the bearings to the towers?...or is it really a problem?)
I'm truly looking forward to the collective plodding through what appears to be a new level in A8 DIY. Those of us who have spare cars to drive while our 8's are down, space to leave things strewn about for a few weeks, and tolerant spouses will have some real fun. But, for anyone who needs their car and needs it to run right, I advocate letting an experienced rebuilder do the work; and our resident Guru is one of the best on these funky ZF's.
One of the things I'm most interested in is watching the progress on finding a solution to the valve body problems many of us experience. I think that's a large part of all the thumping and clunking my transmission spews daily. As the value of 8's with bad transmissions dip into the sub-$3k range (on occasion) I think we'll see a lot more people taking a stab at fixing them, as well as a lot more panicked folks showing up here on the forum.
With all of that said, I'm stepping off my soapbox for the evening.
From personal experience, there's a LOT more to it than we can get out of a book. Guys like Gabor who have been through dozens of them and who have had some sort of training on how to assess all the problems inside a transmission are worth their weight in gold.
In my last go around with an A4 ZF transmission it was clear that I was in WAY over my head. With a little coaching and a spare transmission to use for reference, I MAY have succeeded in fixing the problem, but I do have my doubts. In any case, it was clear that I was in there to replace a couple parts, not to do a real rebuild or overhaul.
Small things like how to assess the o-ring seals, how to assess clutch packs, how to properly reassemble the o-ring seals & pistons without shaving a little flat spot on them, how to check clearances in each assembled clutch pack, and how to check endplay in the fully assembled trans are skills that can take time to master....or even recognize you/we need. (Damn, I don't have enough endplay. Is it because of the Vaseline I used to 'glue' the bearings to the towers?...or is it really a problem?)
I'm truly looking forward to the collective plodding through what appears to be a new level in A8 DIY. Those of us who have spare cars to drive while our 8's are down, space to leave things strewn about for a few weeks, and tolerant spouses will have some real fun. But, for anyone who needs their car and needs it to run right, I advocate letting an experienced rebuilder do the work; and our resident Guru is one of the best on these funky ZF's.
One of the things I'm most interested in is watching the progress on finding a solution to the valve body problems many of us experience. I think that's a large part of all the thumping and clunking my transmission spews daily. As the value of 8's with bad transmissions dip into the sub-$3k range (on occasion) I think we'll see a lot more people taking a stab at fixing them, as well as a lot more panicked folks showing up here on the forum.
With all of that said, I'm stepping off my soapbox for the evening.
01-19-2009, 05:26 AM
#44
Agree 100% with you.
A repair manual will definetly not rebuilt the tranny, but lets say that one of us is out of work and he wants to take the chance to save a few dollars. A repair manual will help a knowledgeable person do the job right. To me is to get a better understanding of the internals of this specific tranny. Hope it never happens to my S8 but a ZF rebuilt or a TOZOed rebuilt will be my first choice. But if I get stuck 2000 miles away from home and I end up at a wanna be AAA repair shop I'd like to know how they are supposed to do the work and guide them to do it right.
Cheers
Cheers
01-19-2009, 10:05 AM
#45
AudiWorld Member
Thread Starter
I agree about 90%. I'm more of a don't-wanna-be though...
"Why am I spending my time on this?" Is a question I often ask myself and the answer seems to be quite complex. The owner of the company I work for has asked me that too (we are friends and often seek each other's counsel on matters outside the business). He seems quite amused that I work on my own cars, I think partly because he knows my income and partly because he knows how many things I've got going with work and a young family and all. It's a challenge to explain it to a non-car-guy.
You are right, we are more or less going in to fix a specific problem on these transmissions and in part must rely on the trickle down of information from the pros and others who have been there. When I fixed the ZF from my 5 series BMW 10 years ago, it was a savvy parts guy at the dealership who diagnosed it for me (clutch pack `A' shaft seal, IIRC). And he was right! In my experience, it is always a single 50 cent part that brings down system and the great majority of the rest of the parts aren't even close to their MTBF. With this in mind, I don't even measure some things such as endplay when reassembling parts unless I have noticed excess wear on the relevant parts or I am installing new ones that will affect endplay. I do however pay particular attention to "wear items" and rubber bits. It is different for a firm that sells remanufactured units. When a ZF trans rebuilder goes in to rebuild a transmission, it is critical that all measurements are made and the whole system must be assessed. They may not even know the failure mode or number of miles on that particular unit and it probably doesn't matter anyway because they are going to put all specs back to new and that is what you are buying when you get a "remanufactured" unit.
In deciding whether to do this job there were several aspects that came into play for me. In the end the overriding factor was the thought that this was an opportunity to kind of "go through" the car and spot any other trouble areas. This car is the one that my family will be riding in the most, and I am positive that no one cares about its condition more than me. And I also am sure that no one would take the time to do things like clean the inside of the engine bay/trans tunnel, touch up the sub-frame paint, etc. Adding to my motivation, my local Audi dealer has proven time and time again that they do not warrant my trust in caring for these cars. On the technical side they seem OK, but they do everything possible to con you into service and parts that aren't needed at $105/hr and over 75% markup. You have to get "educated" on the car just to know if you are getting hosed or not, and by that time it's easier to just do it yourself and save some bucks. There are some good independent shops in this area, but it is a challenge to find someone who specializes in Audis, let alone the rare 8-cars. The collective knowledge of this board compares favorably with any pro I have met, IMO.
My other thought is that I wish more people besides just us gearheads would dig in and get knowledgeable about their cars. If people in general were more informed "consumers of car repair" it would make it more difficult for the unscrupulous repair facilities to survive. I do believe that there are more honest car care professionals out there than dishonest ones, but so many car owners are such easy prey that it really can enhance the bottom line by being dishonest. I think this is even more true at a high-end brand dealership, where many uniformed people just chalk it up to the cost of owning a premium car.
You are right, we are more or less going in to fix a specific problem on these transmissions and in part must rely on the trickle down of information from the pros and others who have been there. When I fixed the ZF from my 5 series BMW 10 years ago, it was a savvy parts guy at the dealership who diagnosed it for me (clutch pack `A' shaft seal, IIRC). And he was right! In my experience, it is always a single 50 cent part that brings down system and the great majority of the rest of the parts aren't even close to their MTBF. With this in mind, I don't even measure some things such as endplay when reassembling parts unless I have noticed excess wear on the relevant parts or I am installing new ones that will affect endplay. I do however pay particular attention to "wear items" and rubber bits. It is different for a firm that sells remanufactured units. When a ZF trans rebuilder goes in to rebuild a transmission, it is critical that all measurements are made and the whole system must be assessed. They may not even know the failure mode or number of miles on that particular unit and it probably doesn't matter anyway because they are going to put all specs back to new and that is what you are buying when you get a "remanufactured" unit.
In deciding whether to do this job there were several aspects that came into play for me. In the end the overriding factor was the thought that this was an opportunity to kind of "go through" the car and spot any other trouble areas. This car is the one that my family will be riding in the most, and I am positive that no one cares about its condition more than me. And I also am sure that no one would take the time to do things like clean the inside of the engine bay/trans tunnel, touch up the sub-frame paint, etc. Adding to my motivation, my local Audi dealer has proven time and time again that they do not warrant my trust in caring for these cars. On the technical side they seem OK, but they do everything possible to con you into service and parts that aren't needed at $105/hr and over 75% markup. You have to get "educated" on the car just to know if you are getting hosed or not, and by that time it's easier to just do it yourself and save some bucks. There are some good independent shops in this area, but it is a challenge to find someone who specializes in Audis, let alone the rare 8-cars. The collective knowledge of this board compares favorably with any pro I have met, IMO.
My other thought is that I wish more people besides just us gearheads would dig in and get knowledgeable about their cars. If people in general were more informed "consumers of car repair" it would make it more difficult for the unscrupulous repair facilities to survive. I do believe that there are more honest car care professionals out there than dishonest ones, but so many car owners are such easy prey that it really can enhance the bottom line by being dishonest. I think this is even more true at a high-end brand dealership, where many uniformed people just chalk it up to the cost of owning a premium car.
01-19-2009, 10:12 AM
#46
AudiWorld Member
Thread Starter
Itinerary of 5HP24A repair manual:
OK, someone correct me if I have the order wrong or forgot someone. So far we have
DaveInSaltLake
A8CT
diogeniS8
CalG
OOOOya
Anyone else who would like to review/copy the manual, please add your name to this post.
DaveInSaltLake
A8CT
diogeniS8
CalG
OOOOya
Anyone else who would like to review/copy the manual, please add your name to this post.
02-18-2010, 09:37 PM
#48
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Join Date: Feb 2010
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I would really appreciate it if the manual was still available. I have already jumped in feet first and I was going to buy the manual when I ordered the parts. Thanks for all the help you guys have been over the years by the way. You have made owning my A8 a lot easier!
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