Dont you guys think that A8 is overpriced? I mean lets be realistic here, how many people are going
08-01-2001, 07:12 AM
#12
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Two comments...sorry if too long
1. Most people - not all but most - in this price range lease their cars, so your "resale" point is not completely valid.
2. Your driver/owner age point is no longer valid either, as a lot more people in their 30s, 40s and even mid to late 20s, at least in NYC area, are driving W220 S-class vs W140 S-class when that one was new.
And booming economy of the late 90s is not the reason - it is STYLING, and yes... VALUE - you get a lot more in the new S-class for $10-20K less (depending on options) than in the W140.
IMO the ONLY things going for A8/S8 vs W220 S is AWD and its price - not MSRP (which is not that far below S430/S500) but the actual retail transaction price, as you know, there are no discounts off MSRP on the W220 S-class.
I do not know about the rest of the US, but in NYC metro it seams S430/500s outsell A8/S8s by at least 40 to 1. This is not based on any sale figures, just on my observing the number of S430/500/55/600 vs A8/S8. You can see exclusive S55/S600 more often than A8 after 2000 facelift.
I do not buy an "image" or "status" argument, as I personally, and assume most mid to high end car buyers, would select the best overall vehicle in a given price range, based on STYLING and VALUE. Common, S-class IS stunning in its AMG trim outside, and unbelievably stunning, in any trim, inside. Hands down day and night better that A8.
Having said that, however, I talked my friend out of S55 and into getting S8 instead - because his need was for a single car with snow capabilities, if needed (he travels to upstate NY often - read a lot of snow in winter). If his driving would keep him mostly in NYC area, he would have an S55, not an S8.
All I am trying to say is that one can't say most of S-class buyers are idiots who are after status/image. Lets face it - MB has much better product across the line. I will not include BMW here as my personal experience with 2 new BMWs, 3 & 5, makes me wanting no part of it again. Never had problems with any of them, but they did not "feel" the same 2 years later - unbelievable good when new, not the same when not.
Sorry for the long ramblings and if I offended anyone - just my feelings about it, as MB was put down too often here and on A6 board.
I am not against Audi, just the opposite, I am a fan of AWD and have '01 A6 4.2 Sport that I like very much. I also have 2 new MBs, had 3rd new but traded it for the A6 - yes I traded "image" for "substance", so if most buyers were like me, mid/high end MBs would outnumber Audis by only 2 to 1 - just joking.
2. Your driver/owner age point is no longer valid either, as a lot more people in their 30s, 40s and even mid to late 20s, at least in NYC area, are driving W220 S-class vs W140 S-class when that one was new.
And booming economy of the late 90s is not the reason - it is STYLING, and yes... VALUE - you get a lot more in the new S-class for $10-20K less (depending on options) than in the W140.
IMO the ONLY things going for A8/S8 vs W220 S is AWD and its price - not MSRP (which is not that far below S430/S500) but the actual retail transaction price, as you know, there are no discounts off MSRP on the W220 S-class.
I do not know about the rest of the US, but in NYC metro it seams S430/500s outsell A8/S8s by at least 40 to 1. This is not based on any sale figures, just on my observing the number of S430/500/55/600 vs A8/S8. You can see exclusive S55/S600 more often than A8 after 2000 facelift.
I do not buy an "image" or "status" argument, as I personally, and assume most mid to high end car buyers, would select the best overall vehicle in a given price range, based on STYLING and VALUE. Common, S-class IS stunning in its AMG trim outside, and unbelievably stunning, in any trim, inside. Hands down day and night better that A8.
Having said that, however, I talked my friend out of S55 and into getting S8 instead - because his need was for a single car with snow capabilities, if needed (he travels to upstate NY often - read a lot of snow in winter). If his driving would keep him mostly in NYC area, he would have an S55, not an S8.
All I am trying to say is that one can't say most of S-class buyers are idiots who are after status/image. Lets face it - MB has much better product across the line. I will not include BMW here as my personal experience with 2 new BMWs, 3 & 5, makes me wanting no part of it again. Never had problems with any of them, but they did not "feel" the same 2 years later - unbelievable good when new, not the same when not.
Sorry for the long ramblings and if I offended anyone - just my feelings about it, as MB was put down too often here and on A6 board.
I am not against Audi, just the opposite, I am a fan of AWD and have '01 A6 4.2 Sport that I like very much. I also have 2 new MBs, had 3rd new but traded it for the A6 - yes I traded "image" for "substance", so if most buyers were like me, mid/high end MBs would outnumber Audis by only 2 to 1 - just joking.
08-01-2001, 09:17 AM
#18
About half of my A8 sales were sales, and the other half leased.
Yes, this unusual in this class of car. A lot of people seem confident that the engineering in this car is sound, and since it is not bought as a fashion statement, trading it in because it is no longer the flavour of the moment is not a consideration. I think this is why the 3.7 went by the wayside. You have A8 owners and non-A8 owners - it's not a wannabe situation. You could put a spin on it and say that A8 owners are status oblivious;-)
In L.A, there is a definite age gap in ownership between Audi and MB. We had a former longtime MB salesperson with whom we had many an interesting discussion. He lamented the MB transition from being in the true elite, to merely upscale. I have a friend who works at a BMW dealer, and he agrees about demographics. The buyers are different from one another in most cases. People who want to buy a car for status, don't bother me. At an Audi dealer though, you rarely need to meet them. In the end if you are happy, who is to say that one reason is more valid than another ?
MB is not a bad car maker. However, I feel they are trading on their old virtues to increase the desireability of their present offerings. The old prestige/exclusivity, reliability and construction is not evident in the new cars. The old coachbuilt feel of the top models is gone. Younger buyers may not even know what is missing if they haven't been exposed to it. The difference is most pronounced by going to a Concours where British, German and American cars from the '60s are present. You have to go to the '30s to find American cars that could match the quality.
I once had an early '60s MB traded in on a car. I went to the back lot where it had been parked on a Sunday evening. It sat there in oxidized black paint smelling of oil, gas, horsehair, and rubber. All the trim was intact and undented. The seams on the upholstry where intact. You felt that you could renew the rubber seals and give the car a paint job and it would be ready for another 40 years.
The A8 feels like it is more closely related to that car than the new MB.
There are endless ways to justify buying a car with particular features. In this class it usually boils down to, " I want to buy that car."
In L.A, there is a definite age gap in ownership between Audi and MB. We had a former longtime MB salesperson with whom we had many an interesting discussion. He lamented the MB transition from being in the true elite, to merely upscale. I have a friend who works at a BMW dealer, and he agrees about demographics. The buyers are different from one another in most cases. People who want to buy a car for status, don't bother me. At an Audi dealer though, you rarely need to meet them. In the end if you are happy, who is to say that one reason is more valid than another ?
MB is not a bad car maker. However, I feel they are trading on their old virtues to increase the desireability of their present offerings. The old prestige/exclusivity, reliability and construction is not evident in the new cars. The old coachbuilt feel of the top models is gone. Younger buyers may not even know what is missing if they haven't been exposed to it. The difference is most pronounced by going to a Concours where British, German and American cars from the '60s are present. You have to go to the '30s to find American cars that could match the quality.
I once had an early '60s MB traded in on a car. I went to the back lot where it had been parked on a Sunday evening. It sat there in oxidized black paint smelling of oil, gas, horsehair, and rubber. All the trim was intact and undented. The seams on the upholstry where intact. You felt that you could renew the rubber seals and give the car a paint job and it would be ready for another 40 years.
The A8 feels like it is more closely related to that car than the new MB.
There are endless ways to justify buying a car with particular features. In this class it usually boils down to, " I want to buy that car."
08-01-2001, 09:22 AM
#19
Audi has not intended for the A8 to compete in volume.
The A8 remains a partially handbuilt car. There are no plans for high speed assembly. Think of it as a half way point between Bentley and MB with AWD.
08-01-2001, 10:01 AM
#20
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No argument from me on your points.
I do know several W220 owners who say that their W140 cars were build better, some W124 owners say same vs W210 E as well.
I would never buy W140 but would W220, both MB so no snob factor here, because I like new style/value a lot more, and W220 S' interior is about the riches, save the new W215 CL's, IMO of any mass produces 4-door cars today.
With availability of 3 year or so leases today, most buyers do not care if cars will last 10 years or more. And if buying, people who can afford to pay $70K and up for a car do not want to deal with whatever issues/problems that may arise in a 7/8 year old car with 80K+ mile on it, with all electronics used on cars today, which were not even dreamed of 10 years ago, I am not even mentioning 20.
You must agree that 10 year old A8 looks very much dated next to W220 S, even after 2000 facelift. IMO MB S will look just as fresh in 6/7 years from now or whenever they will choose to redesign it.
Look at current W210 E-class, it may not have been made as well as old W124 E, but - especially with AMG sport package - still fantastic looking car IMO, and they will completely change it next year for MY '03. Can you say this about A8? I would say no.
I may change my mind when new A8/S8 will come out 2/3 years from now. I think that car will be much closer to MB S-class, and if current trend continues then, one could make an argument in that image/prestige is an issue when comparing similar cars, but until that time S-class is head and shoulders above A8/A8L. S8 bridges the gap somewhat on the performance front, but basic styling shortcomings remain the same.
I would never buy W140 but would W220, both MB so no snob factor here, because I like new style/value a lot more, and W220 S' interior is about the riches, save the new W215 CL's, IMO of any mass produces 4-door cars today.
With availability of 3 year or so leases today, most buyers do not care if cars will last 10 years or more. And if buying, people who can afford to pay $70K and up for a car do not want to deal with whatever issues/problems that may arise in a 7/8 year old car with 80K+ mile on it, with all electronics used on cars today, which were not even dreamed of 10 years ago, I am not even mentioning 20.
You must agree that 10 year old A8 looks very much dated next to W220 S, even after 2000 facelift. IMO MB S will look just as fresh in 6/7 years from now or whenever they will choose to redesign it.
Look at current W210 E-class, it may not have been made as well as old W124 E, but - especially with AMG sport package - still fantastic looking car IMO, and they will completely change it next year for MY '03. Can you say this about A8? I would say no.
I may change my mind when new A8/S8 will come out 2/3 years from now. I think that car will be much closer to MB S-class, and if current trend continues then, one could make an argument in that image/prestige is an issue when comparing similar cars, but until that time S-class is head and shoulders above A8/A8L. S8 bridges the gap somewhat on the performance front, but basic styling shortcomings remain the same.