ocles_inc

A customer expressed interest in buying a used ZF 5HP-24A transmission for his 1997 Audi A8 Quattro. His transmission had, as far as he and I could tell, failed in the classic "blown A clutch drum" way.

I buy these transmissions used, sometimes in a car, sometimes not. If not, they get installed in a car and tested, but first the lower front valve body housing gets removed and sent to the ZF distributor for renewal. This, as I understand things, prevents the pressure spike that blows out the clutch "A" drum -- for the next 100K miles anyway. That's why I confidently warranty the used transmissions I sell against this type of failure, for 3 years. Also, new ZF filter, new ZF pan gasket, new Ravenol fluid ... also strongly recommended: a renewed torque converter, that the customer buys directly from the ZF distributor.

At the time, I had three of these transmissions, one in a silver 98, one in a green 99 and one in a silver 99. I like the customer to drive the car containing the transmission he's buying so he doesn't have to take my word for it that it's good. But better than that would be to have a choice of three different transmissions from which to choose, after test-driving each. We're in the Reno area.

Reno is a popular shipping hub since it's sort of central, relative to a group of large cities: Boise, Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, Sacramento, San Jose, and San Francisco. The customer is in Northern Idaho, a mere 11-hour drive away. So, come on down!

Sadly, it wasn't viable for him to travel to us. So, what's better than a road trip in a silver D2 Audi A8 Quattro?



A road trip in TWO of them. Notice the license plates ...

Yes, we decided it's time for some personal vacation time, and if this makes it possible for the client to test-drive the cars and maybe choose a transmission to buy, better yet. So, we drove from just east of Reno, up highway 95 to Lewiston, Idaho. Pretty!






On the way there, my friend who was driving the 99 A8 Quattro got pulled over for speeding somewhere in Idaho, and he explained to the officer that it's my car and he's not used to driving it, and it's just so darn fast with this V8, and ... "Try to keep it to V6 speeds," the officer admonished, and let him go without a ticket. Yay!

The next day we arrived in Moscow, Idaho. We met the customer for breakfast, and had a nice conversation about life, and Audi A8 Quattro cars. He drove both cars, and I plugged my laptop into each car and ran the Ross-Tech VCDS diagnostics while he was watching. No transmission fault codes, yay!

He preferred the transmission in the 1999 car, so now that's in my shop, having its transmission removed. My tech made the Audi levitate (look, the front wheels are off the ground) and I moved the front radiator beam out of the way, today: Do you like the white-painted floor? It makes it easy to keep things clean, and find dropped items.



I prefer to remove the engine, transmission and sub-frame all at once. Whether the suspension comes along or not ... depends on what I plan to do.



I used to work in an automobile factory (not Audi, sadly), and that's how I saw cars buying built. The engine, transmission and suspension were attached to the sub-frame. That was then lifted up from below, mated to the car, and bolted to the frame of the car. It was cool to see it happen! So, this approach fits my personal comfort zone.

... and that's the news, as to this case study.

~Tanya, living the dream

LarryJa

I'll bet it was a very relaxing drive, up & back!

hillpc

How much time does it take to get the front bumper, etc off like that? I have been reluctant to do that; instead I waste a bunch of time trying various tools to get into tight spaces up there.

tanya_charbury

Thank you for the personal comment. It really was. It was a lovely drive with half of the beauty being above the horizon. My life is hectic and for many years now I've promised myself a vacation where I would sit in a comfortable chair and just look at clouds, for hours on end. Well, that's what this was, much of the time. The chair and I happened to be inside an Audi A8, but .... that made it better, not worse. Here's a picture from that road trip:



Here's a picture of me, in Idaho. I even look relaxed



~Tanya

tanya_charbury

As to: " How much time does it take to get the front bumper, etc off like that? I have been reluctant to do that; instead I waste a bunch of time trying various tools to get into tight spaces up there. "

It depends. When I do it methodically, such as when I have all the tools close at hand, plus labeled cans for the fasteners, and a numbered bin into which I put the parts I remove, and I'm wearing gloves, and I'm working inside my clean, warm, dry shop -- and nothing goes spectacularly badly such as a bolt being frozen -- then I can nowadays get the front bumper off in half an hour or so without rushing. It's really not all that complicated. It's like a fun puzzle. Draining the washer fluid can take maybe ten minutes but I don't count that.

Last night, to take off the pair of headlights, probably ten minutes. That's even less complicated.

Draining the coolant (as in, it dripping out) can take maybe fifteen minutes but I don't count that. Part of what makes this work is having the car on jack stands at a decent height. That took maybe ten minutes. An important tool is an office chair with the right height, and that you don't mind staining with dirt or coolant or oil. Also, the fenders can poke your eye out or you can damage the paint while wrestling with the front beam, so it's prudent to tape empty milk bottles and cardboard onto them, and to have dry, empty water bottles or cardboard tubes (such as inside paper towel rolls) handy, for putting around removed hoses. Safety & prep, maybe 5 minutes.

With all that handled ... let me think back to last night. It helped a lot to know which things to undo. Thinking ... I picked up the power steering bottle. That took a minute or two (because it got stuck, otherwise it'd have been ten seconds). I undid the Oetiker clamp for power steering at the radiator, for the hose that runs to the steering rack. I put a cardboard tube around the hose. Maybe a couple of minutes there. I undid the transmission fluid lines where they attach to the radiator and put tubes over them, too ... maybe five minutes because I was unclear. Next time, two minutes. Undoing the coolant hoses where they attach to the radiator: three minutes. Undoing the horns so they allow the refrigerant lines to flex with more leeway: last time ten minutes, this time three. Clipping ZIP ties, three minutes only because I photographed them first. Undoing A/C electrical connectors, a minute. Detaching the air flow hoses, a minute. Detaching the hood release cable, a minute. Detaching electrical wiring connections I didn't need to touch, five minutes. So by then the coolant was drained, and the only hoses or cables between the radiator support beam and the car were the two refrigerant lines,and one power steering hose, to the bottle. So, what are we at for this paragraph: close to half an hour. Add 15 minutes of staring at the beam,and thinking (which you won't have to do because you're reading this, which saves you time).

So then, on each side, pulling up the square rubber plugs and undoing the hex bolt, and the three 13mm bolts that attach the bumper shock .. maybe 5 minutes.

Making mistakes while learning, and wrestling the beam onto the chair, and catching it while trying to slip off, and trying to keep the double-folded trash bag between the chair and the beam, and mopping up coolant and oil that spilled due to me holding things at weird angles: 15 minutes.

So excluding dumb mistakes that, by reading this, you can avoid:

- Removing the bumper: 30 minutes not counting the time the washer fluid piddles out
- Getting the car on jack stands: 10 minutes
- Removing the headlights: 10 minutes
- Safety & prep: 5 minutes.
- Moving the beam: 45 minutes not counting the time the coolant piddles out

Total: 100 minutes.

I'd done the bumper the night before, and my tech got the car up on jack stands for me, so the core work that was my share of it was just about an hour. I remember staring at it when I was done, thinking "dang, that went fast."

The key is knowing what to do. When I first started swinging wrenches, the first front wheel drive shaft I removed took me maybe four hours. Pretty soon with repetition I had it down to 18 minutes. It safe to say I'm somewhere on the autism spectrum (seriously) and I'm mentally very slow sometimes but I can learn steadily, and get faster and faster -- plus I can remember vast amounts of detail especially if it's software code or numeric data. Two days ago I was driving and talking to a software developer who was looking at some T-SQL code she was debugging. I suddenly said "Wait, I think I see the bug." "Where are you?" she asked. "Just coming up on Fernley, Nevada," I replied. "But you can't see the code," she responded. Well, I sort of can, actually. I'm weird like that (and in many other ways). So maybe I'm the worst person to ask "how long does it take?" The first time I did this Audi A8 bumper and beam thing it took me a very long time. Now, I'm quick. Ask me next year and I'll be much quicker yet, most likely.

However, a more important point is: even if the methodical approach (such as removing things that are in the way) takes (say) four hours of prep and the actual work takes you an hour vs. when you do it the blood-and-guts way then it takes (say) three hours, then the way I see it is that you're choosing between 4+1=5 hours of clean, logical, enjoyable, safe work vs. 3 hours or dirty, brute-force, frustrating, dangerous work.

Close your eyes, if you will, and envision my shop while I'm working on this. It's quiet. I might be humming a tune, or there might be some nice music playing. If you take a picture of me at any random instant, I'm probably smiling or at least looking happy. By contrast, I've hired enough mechanics and worked with enough of them to know that the blood-and-guts way way sounds like ... well, let's imagine. .... Growling. Grunting. Angry muttering. Some profanity. An anguished, tortured grunt like someone yanking hard on something. The sharp sound of metal hitting metal as something slips. A cry of pain. Then, a couple of seconds of silence, then "Goddammit!!!" Then the sound of metal hitting something across the room as a wrench is thrown in anger. "Mothereffer. These goddamn stupid effen German effen cars! I hate them so effen much! Stupid effen dung. This is SOOO stupid how they designed this! Goddammit. Ow. Eff. And now I stripped the effen bolt and it's gonna take me an extra hour to remove. And I have to remove the cover to get access. I hate working on this effen thing."

So then it's tempting for me to step in and say, "Actually, you're the problem. You're being irrational. You failed because you approached it illogically. The A8 designers made it easy for you to remove this part. You just didn't think of how to do this the way they intended. That's your problem: you didn't think about it enough. You don't think about things enough, generally. So how about I just pay you for the entire day, and you take off, and I'll finish up? Really, yes. I insist." -- that doesn't go down so well. Maybe it's my German accent. Maybe it's my calm politeness. Anyway, it alienates people.

So instead I generally just keep quiet and and try to not get hurt by flying wenches or falling objects. And, I generally avoid hiring or rehiring people who use the blood-and-gust approach. They're typically not very happy people anyway,and I prefer to work in a happy environment,even if that means working alone, or with just a few eccentric techs who are nice to me,and who make it nice for me to be around.

It's a question I propose be answered with more than a "how long does approach A vs. approach B take?" It's a basic choice of two philosophically opposite ways of approaching the issue. Based on how I know you, from all the help you've (personally) given me, and how precisely you (personally) think, I'd guess the more-methodical way seems to be a better fit for your mindset. :-)

tanya_charbury

Tying in with my blood-and-guts post, above: ...

Some of the reasons why I chose A8 owners, as to selling used parts to, are:

A8 owners tend to be more elegant, polished, nice, cerebral people -- more likely to be professionals, especially engineers
A8 owners are more likely to buy based on the quality of the experience as opposed to price alone
A8 owners are less likely to insult Audi engineers in the process of buying parts
A8 owners are more likely to appreciate OEM quality, even if it's in a used part
A8 owners are more likely to understand the problem they're trying to fix, and to buy the right part(s) for that
A8 owners are more likely to be ethical as business dealings.

When, two weeks ago, I was about to meet an Audi A8 owner for the first time, we were about to have breakfast, in a busy restaurant. I was already there when he arrived. Before he showed up, many other guys had come in, but he was the only guy who inspired me to think "that looks like an A8 owner" and he was the only guy I waved at. He looked ... what's the phrase ... intellectually focused.

I also sell parts for more-humble cars. There's nothing wrong with that. For example, many good people drive VWs as have I, and my mom and dad. But ... I enjoy focusing on A8 owners. There is a difference, in a way that I prefer. It's like having dinner with someone who knows how to use a napkin, and cutlery, how to chew with a closed mouth, and how to be civil with the waitress. It just somehow makes for a nicer experience, for me.

~Tanya

hillpc

Wow! I am floored by your kindness in writing all this up.

I worked on a friend's minivan some years ago, and at first launched into the blood and guts approach (cursing of course as things unfolded), instead of removing a large plastic cowl, that, in the end, made the job entirely simple. You have reinforced this for me. You're a real humanitarian. Thanks.

hillpc

Regarding A8 owners, you're only the third (including myself) that I've been exposed to. My cousin, who gave me the car, is a technical translator (German/English). I'm an engineer. So your points certainly ring true in this small sample.

tanya_charbury

What goes around, comes around. A year or two ago, you helped me when I was struggling trying to figure the clutch "A" drum issue out. :-) I'm glad I can help you in return --- and thanks to the publishing power of this forum, everyone who reads this, potentially.

My hope is that folks will prefer to buy used D2 A8 parts from my company because it tries to be helpful and seems to have at least a clue, so ultimately I hope that this approach will enable me to sell more parts, too. I like the premise that benevolent action is a self-rewarding process :-)

But, as to your point: I like your example. if we're going to work on cars (or do anything in life, really) we might as well make it as enjoyable as we reasonably can.

There's certainly a lot of opportunity, when working on a D2 A8. When working on a car, there's much opportunity to get intimately acquainted with the engineering. Every now and then I notice one more piece of thoughtfulness that the Audi engineers added in, and I delight in it. I also own several C5 A6 cars, also with the 4.2 V8 but much as they're wonderful too, they're not quite in the same category of "engineering cool" as the D2 A8, in my humble opinion.

Here's a "happy girl" (me) picture after moving the beam on my 1998 D2 A8, in February of this year.

~Tanya

tanya_charbury

That IS interesting.

Even the more humbly-employed folks I've bought these cars from tended to not be the sort of people whom I could imagine beating up their wives, kicking their dogs in the head and beating up their children for being too noisy while "the game" was on.