From an 03 S8 to an 06 W12?
07-14-2019, 06:13 PM
#1
From an 03 S8 to an 06 W12?
Not a great picture but looks nice
The only area I could see with some oil, I’m thinking it could be PCV tubing
Hello,
First post- I have an 03 S8 for 6 years now and took it from 100k to 160k, basically troublefree for the first 5 years and then a lot of issues this year. The transmission is finally surrendering- limp mode has started. Don’t want to put any more $$ into it. Loved the car, make no mistake.
A friend of a friend is moving and wants to sell his 06 W12- 103K, and serviced at Audi and recent new tires, front air suspension, tie rods and wheel alignment. Has had it since 2008, he says he has been meticulous with it. I saw it and it’s beautiful and rides perfectly. I tested most stuff out and it works. Is the 4 seater with fridge and interior is mint. Audi did the 75K service. Brake and rotors done at Audi at 70k and I couldn’t tell the pad width on visual inspection like I can on my S8. Even the engine bottom pan looks pretty good. He is asking around $9k. I know the maintenance can be a bear but it seems like it was well taken care of and it seems better than getting from a used car dealer where you have limited history. I looked at 2012-13 A8s for $20k and above but the W12 is such a special car. Thanks for your input.
07-14-2019, 08:20 PM
#2
AudiWorld Super User
Search on my prior posts for tips. Your summary hits most of the majors. Others would be see if the coolant temp sensor has been done and also check the front torque mount very carefully. Both are "when not if" on W12's. Probably the thermostat ultimately too, though miles maybe still somewhat young for that. Unlike port 4.2, no belt and the heavy maintenance there, and the W12 chain system has had very few reported serious issues now over the whole life of the board. Internal engine is very reliable by all accounts.
It's a beautiful car and motor, and a definite step up from 4.2 at any power level. Do expect you are signing up for some real repair bills over time, or DIY if you are experienced. Your next major service is at 115K--plugs, filters, etc. At age of your S8, yes it is headed to money pit. Unlike the lemon tranny in the D2 and C5 4.2's, the D3 one is a lot more reliable. Has its issues, but they don't just plain blow up internally like the 5 speeds do inevitably. With the 6 gears, a good amount more pep too, especially coupled to a motor with torque like no tomorrow. In addition, most any W12 is really loaded to begin with. All those features do then mean more upkeep to be sober.
For D4, there is a big break at 2013 BTW. 4.2 FSI was 2011-12, and then 4.0T started in 2013. Upkeep on those should be less than D3, a lot simply age and miles difference.
The leak is indeed likely the oil related hoses there. Called the fine oil separator--one on each side, and they also handle the PCV function. Those hoses are pricy--$100+ each for plastic tubes, so know it going in. Most W12 parts are standard and cost what 4.2 ones do. There are a few items like this that are more one offs, plus more parts in general with 12 cylinders and all the features.
It's a beautiful car and motor, and a definite step up from 4.2 at any power level. Do expect you are signing up for some real repair bills over time, or DIY if you are experienced. Your next major service is at 115K--plugs, filters, etc. At age of your S8, yes it is headed to money pit. Unlike the lemon tranny in the D2 and C5 4.2's, the D3 one is a lot more reliable. Has its issues, but they don't just plain blow up internally like the 5 speeds do inevitably. With the 6 gears, a good amount more pep too, especially coupled to a motor with torque like no tomorrow. In addition, most any W12 is really loaded to begin with. All those features do then mean more upkeep to be sober.
For D4, there is a big break at 2013 BTW. 4.2 FSI was 2011-12, and then 4.0T started in 2013. Upkeep on those should be less than D3, a lot simply age and miles difference.
The leak is indeed likely the oil related hoses there. Called the fine oil separator--one on each side, and they also handle the PCV function. Those hoses are pricy--$100+ each for plastic tubes, so know it going in. Most W12 parts are standard and cost what 4.2 ones do. There are a few items like this that are more one offs, plus more parts in general with 12 cylinders and all the features.
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 07-14-2019 at 08:24 PM.
07-15-2019, 08:01 AM
#3
Thanks for the great info. I did a Carfax and tried to get service info from Audi but Audi said they couldn’t give me a printout and the lady had a hard time with the service info/lingo. The car was a “taxi” in CA for the first year of its life ( 35k miles that first year) and then made its way to FL in 2007 and then to the NE in 2008.
It was serviced at Audi regularly. At the 45k service they replaced the “engine mount”, upper control arms and brake fluid flush(done again at 86k). The lady at Audi said some “coils” were changed a couple of years back but could tell me about a coolant temp sensor. The owner has yet to get me his records.
He brought it a bunch of times to the dealer for service/issues. I hope to get those records from him. There is a 04 A8L with 70k miles but there is a problem with the air suspension (bottomed out), timing belt never been done and it has aftermarket wheels. He wants $8k. Original owner and nice condition but I told him to evaluate the air suspension issue. I still like the W12!
It was serviced at Audi regularly. At the 45k service they replaced the “engine mount”, upper control arms and brake fluid flush(done again at 86k). The lady at Audi said some “coils” were changed a couple of years back but could tell me about a coolant temp sensor. The owner has yet to get me his records.
He brought it a bunch of times to the dealer for service/issues. I hope to get those records from him. There is a 04 A8L with 70k miles but there is a problem with the air suspension (bottomed out), timing belt never been done and it has aftermarket wheels. He wants $8k. Original owner and nice condition but I told him to evaluate the air suspension issue. I still like the W12!
Search on my prior posts for tips. Your summary hits most of the majors. Others would be see if the coolant temp sensor has been done and also check the front torque mount very carefully. Both are "when not if" on W12's. Probably the thermostat ultimately too, though miles maybe still somewhat young for that. Unlike port 4.2, no belt and the heavy maintenance there, and the W12 chain system has had very few reported serious issues now over the whole life of the board. Internal engine is very reliable by all accounts.
It's a beautiful car and motor, and a definite step up from 4.2 at any power level. Do expect you are signing up for some real repair bills over time, or DIY if you are experienced. Your next major service is at 115K--plugs, filters, etc. At age of your S8, yes it is headed to money pit. Unlike the lemon tranny in the D2 and C5 4.2's, the D3 one is a lot more reliable. Has its issues, but they don't just plain blow up internally like the 5 speeds do inevitably. With the 6 gears, a good amount more pep too, especially coupled to a motor with torque like no tomorrow. In addition, most any W12 is really loaded to begin with. All those features do then mean more upkeep to be sober.
For D4, there is a big break at 2013 BTW. 4.2 FSI was 2011-12, and then 4.0T started in 2013. Upkeep on those should be less than D3, a lot simply age and miles difference.
The leak is indeed likely the oil related hoses there. Called the fine oil separator--one on each side, and they also handle the PCV function. Those hoses are pricy--$100+ each for plastic tubes, so know it going in. Most W12 parts are standard and cost what 4.2 ones do. There are a few items like this that are more one offs, plus more parts in general with 12 cylinders and all the features.
It's a beautiful car and motor, and a definite step up from 4.2 at any power level. Do expect you are signing up for some real repair bills over time, or DIY if you are experienced. Your next major service is at 115K--plugs, filters, etc. At age of your S8, yes it is headed to money pit. Unlike the lemon tranny in the D2 and C5 4.2's, the D3 one is a lot more reliable. Has its issues, but they don't just plain blow up internally like the 5 speeds do inevitably. With the 6 gears, a good amount more pep too, especially coupled to a motor with torque like no tomorrow. In addition, most any W12 is really loaded to begin with. All those features do then mean more upkeep to be sober.
For D4, there is a big break at 2013 BTW. 4.2 FSI was 2011-12, and then 4.0T started in 2013. Upkeep on those should be less than D3, a lot simply age and miles difference.
The leak is indeed likely the oil related hoses there. Called the fine oil separator--one on each side, and they also handle the PCV function. Those hoses are pricy--$100+ each for plastic tubes, so know it going in. Most W12 parts are standard and cost what 4.2 ones do. There are a few items like this that are more one offs, plus more parts in general with 12 cylinders and all the features.
07-15-2019, 09:50 AM
#4
AudiWorld Super User
Thanks for the great info. I did a Carfax and tried to get service info from Audi but Audi said they couldn’t give me a printout and the lady had a hard time with the service info/lingo. The car was a “taxi” in CA for the first year of its life ( 35k miles that first year) and then made its way to FL in 2007 and then to the NE in 2008.
It was serviced at Audi regularly. At the 45k service they replaced the “engine mount”, upper control arms and brake fluid flush(done again at 86k). The lady at Audi said some “coils” were changed a couple of years back but could tell me about a coolant temp sensor. The owner has yet to get me his records.
He brought it a bunch of times to the dealer for service/issues. I hope to get those records from him. There is a 04 A8L with 70k miles but there is a problem with the air suspension (bottomed out), timing belt never been done and it has aftermarket wheels. He wants $8k. Original owner and nice condition but I told him to evaluate the air suspension issue. I still like the W12!
It was serviced at Audi regularly. At the 45k service they replaced the “engine mount”, upper control arms and brake fluid flush(done again at 86k). The lady at Audi said some “coils” were changed a couple of years back but could tell me about a coolant temp sensor. The owner has yet to get me his records.
He brought it a bunch of times to the dealer for service/issues. I hope to get those records from him. There is a 04 A8L with 70k miles but there is a problem with the air suspension (bottomed out), timing belt never been done and it has aftermarket wheels. He wants $8k. Original owner and nice condition but I told him to evaluate the air suspension issue. I still like the W12!
1. To get the prior records, you probably need a personal relationship with a service advisor type at a local dealer. They have privacy policy issues--or at least so they say w/ prior records--but my own experience is informally they will show them to you and/or print out without prior owner identifying info. To be clear, the records are there and accessible by VIN at a dealer, but you need to sweet talk them to get at them.
2. I can't tell which motor mount they refer to without a part # or more description. Most likely to break though is the one I mention. There are two main ones though which are the ones properly called motor or engine mounts. This one resists the engine twisting.torque (hence its name) and of course on a W12 gets basically the most workout of any D3. It turns out to have an eyeopening amount of labor to replace it with engine in car--the first time. They have to retrofit drill a hole in a specific place to get a key bolt out--takes many hours to get there. Once the hole is drilled, a lot easier in future repairs of same item. Thus, subtle, but al the more reason to know if it was already done.
3. There is NO timing belt. Timing chains at rear of motor that don't need any regular servicing. Very few reports of issues with the W12 set up on those. Relative to your D2, that is a meaningful parts and labor savings every 75K.
4. Ignition coil packs were a recall where all 12 were replaced. Sounds like that was done on this vehicle.
5. Air ride issue is most commonly a blown front air strut. $1500+ type new part price for an air strut at dealer--common to any D3--so you want it resolved. If neglected, it can lead to a burned air compressor which is round numbers another grand for new. There are other non-dealer options of struts or pumps (rebuilt, used, DIY's), but on any car you buy, this should work. The acid test BTW is you park the car and put it in "jack mode" via MMI. That locks out the suspension compressor while it is just parked there. Come back in 24+ hours with car undisturbed and see if either all is well, or it has dropped. You also scan for codes with VCDS, but often the basic leaks like this only show physically yet not mechanically. Also, be sober that even if this one side is resolved/replaced, it will likely lose both fronts/ the other sometime in the first 200K miles. Mine did. My first replace was dealer new; most recent was a junkyard part off ebay. An example of what you sign up for on a Euro air ride vehicle as they get older. It is by the way a phenomenal system ride wise. Having had a 2000 A6 4.2 with essentially the same aluminum front suspension set up as a D2, way better ride in D3 even though my W12 had the 20's/lower profile set up. But you want it working to enjoy it and exiting owner needs to either make it right or at least get factored into price. I have not followed W12 pricing lately, but it is a special vehicle with a small but very enthusiast following which arguably has grown some. Sub $10K for one working well seems quite reasonable, and as a 2006 it has a few nice tweaks over the first USA year (2005).
6. Last one: if upper control arms were done at 45K, that sounds right. Mine were about then. BUT they also needed to be done again by 100-110K miles. See what records and/or current owner says there. Also, look at the front inner tire tread. If it is scrubbed off toward the inside (as opposed to the more normal outside wear), that turns out to be a diagnostic clue the arm bushings are worn. Another is a little vibration under moderate braking at freeway speeds. You would guess it is in the brakes or tie rods, but I tracked it down to the bushings when they needed the second re do. Essentially on D3's those bushings are a periodic service item, maybe every 50-90K.
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 07-15-2019 at 09:55 AM.
07-16-2019, 07:29 AM
#5
Thank you so much for all the helpful advice. I’ve talked to my Audi mechanic friend and another mechanic and they told me to stay away from the W12. I went to the shop that this person takes the car to and they told me in 2018, they told him the car needed control arms, flex pipe/exhaust work, and sway arm bushings and never got that work done . The owner confirmed that the coolant temperature sensor has never been replaced. I’m a little hesitant about the car now and feel that his asking price of $9000 may be too high and maybe I can offer him significantly less . The 04 A8 I previously mentioned is a 4.2 and the owner said he’s getting the air suspension relays repaired. He’s looking for $8k and is the original owner but never had the timing belt done. Thanks again for all the advice.
07-16-2019, 08:08 AM
#6
AudiWorld Member
go back and ask the shop to give you a total of work that needs to be done, then contact the owner and use it to negotiate the buying price to cover the expenses. Then, you should be set for many miles.
as for the 2004, that is a high price considering the car is 15 years old and needs around $2k for timing belt job. Plus, it may not have Bluetooth or xm radio, etc.
as for the 2004, that is a high price considering the car is 15 years old and needs around $2k for timing belt job. Plus, it may not have Bluetooth or xm radio, etc.
07-16-2019, 02:27 PM
#7
AudiWorld Super User
Thank you so much for all the helpful advice. I’ve talked to my Audi mechanic friend and another mechanic and they told me to stay away from the W12. I went to the shop that this person takes the car to and they told me in 2018, they told him the car needed control arms, flex pipe/exhaust work, and sway arm bushings and never got that work done . The owner confirmed that the coolant temperature sensor has never been replaced. I’m a little hesitant about the car now and feel that his asking price of $9000 may be too high and maybe I can offer him significantly less . The 04 A8 I previously mentioned is a 4.2 and the owner said he’s getting the air suspension relays repaired. He’s looking for $8k and is the original owner but never had the timing belt done. Thanks again for all the advice.
But yes, the W12 is veery unusual. It is really an exotic it terms of volume. As mentioned parts are typically std. Audi price, which means std. German luxury car price. Like your D2 S8. And W12's are loaded, so like any really loaded car, more to keep up. But, a lot of mechanics are probably scared of them. With mine still in family, the last mechanic was adamant something (fairly common) has to be done a certain way. I knew he was wrong, from direct experience. But he is an "Audi mechanic." I finally got on phone and asked him if he ever did one. Answer, sheepishly, nope. Family found a new mechanic...who wants to buy the car. He is comfortable doing work on it. So far from the reports, his prices have been reasonable and he knows the specifics.
Different suggestion. D3's are now getting long in tooth and maybe a bit complex for what you are ready to sign up for. Maybe D4's are too much $$$ still. Instead, how about a C6 A6 4.2? Not the S6 with the V10 that again is more maintenance intensive. The A6 would get you the 4.2, and unless specially equipped will avoid the air ride that gets more fix intensive past 100K, etc. Just read this board a bit and I think you will conclude that is the biggest (and pricy) D3 repair area, and is common to all of them. On the C6 A6 4.2, is also the timing chain + FSI (not belt) version like D3's are starting in 2007, or the D4's in general. A6's depreciate like a rock--similar to the D bodies. Thus maybe you might find one of those at a price that works in decent shape. Again, will be six speed tranny to get away from the lemon 5 speed D2/C5. Not the huge back limo seat like W12 though, and you will have to look a long time to find one even starting to approach the same league of options. But, probably not actually very far off your D2 S8 size wise since each generation of each body gets a little bigger, and tech will be a generation + newer. In chronology, C6 was intro'ed about two years after D3 and then ran into early D4 years. Thus it has the D3 technology and drivetrain from circa 2006 or 2007 by and large.
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 07-16-2019 at 02:41 PM.
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07-16-2019, 04:22 PM
#8
Thank you for the wise advice. I had a 99 A6 years ago which was pedestrian but reliable until somebody smashed into it while I was parked . So I know about the A6s. Yes both of these Audis (2004,2006) are getting long in the tooth without Bluetooth etc. I was looking at A6s but most of them have a lot of miles and it’s rare to find one with a 4.2. I’m still looking. Earlier this year a local Audi dealer had several new 2018 A6s selling for $41-43k around 10k below msrp but they were 2.0L. I couldn’t do it.
My 03S8 treated me fairly well up until this year. I bought it from a private owner for $8k in 2013, and with the help of my mechanic friend just did maintenance like shocks, TB, plugs, rotors, control arms, preventative CV boots, plugs, change fluids and it never failed to start. Earlier this year it started leaking from that oil filter housing area that’s pretty common in these engines – that plastic oil cooler pipe and then there has been a lot of annoying little things like sensors etc. So overall I’m not afraid of these older Audis, I even had a 90 V8Q that was running fine until the transmission went in 2005 at 150k.
[img]blob:https://www.audiworld.com/d6d223d2-98c1-45b9-9c71-6c951ee64b4d[/img]
This is the 04 A8L, I don’t like the wheels but he said he switched them when one of the wheels got damaged years ago, doesn’t have the originals . The car is riding low in this picture and he just fixed the air suspension, he said it had a bad relay.
My 03S8 treated me fairly well up until this year. I bought it from a private owner for $8k in 2013, and with the help of my mechanic friend just did maintenance like shocks, TB, plugs, rotors, control arms, preventative CV boots, plugs, change fluids and it never failed to start. Earlier this year it started leaking from that oil filter housing area that’s pretty common in these engines – that plastic oil cooler pipe and then there has been a lot of annoying little things like sensors etc. So overall I’m not afraid of these older Audis, I even had a 90 V8Q that was running fine until the transmission went in 2005 at 150k.
[img]blob:https://www.audiworld.com/d6d223d2-98c1-45b9-9c71-6c951ee64b4d[/img]
This is the 04 A8L, I don’t like the wheels but he said he switched them when one of the wheels got damaged years ago, doesn’t have the originals . The car is riding low in this picture and he just fixed the air suspension, he said it had a bad relay.
FWIW--you really can't assume you are signing up for a trouble free car. Not at over 100K and over a dozen years old. As to each of the items mentioned, in general they are not W12 specific. Many are identical to the 4.2 and occur just as often. Control arms are probably the upper arm inner bushings again like I said, which most every older D3 of any motor goes through. Sway bar links cost less than $50 for OES Lemforder now. If the main bushings, you need the whole sway bar, again same as 4.2 and also a very easy repair. Flex joint documented failures are more for 4.2's, but any muffler shop can weld in generics for the $100 type price range. The coolant sensor is one that is located in a very bad location, as opposed to somewhat bad on the 4.2. But I have personally documented the how to on that, and several have done it successfully.
But yes, the W12 is veery unusual. It is really an exotic it terms of volume. As mentioned parts are typically std. Audi price, which means std. German luxury car price. Like your D2 S8. And W12's are loaded, so like any really loaded car, more to keep up. But, a lot of mechanics are probably scared of them. With mine still in family, the last mechanic was adamant something (fairly common) has to be done a certain way. I knew he was wrong, from direct experience. But he is an "Audi mechanic." I finally got on phone and asked him if he ever did one. Answer, sheepishly, nope. Family found a new mechanic...who wants to buy the car. He is comfortable doing work on it. So far from the reports, his prices have been reasonable and he knows the specifics.
Different suggestion. D3's are now getting long in tooth and maybe a bit complex for what you are ready to sign up for. Maybe D4's are too much $$$ still. Instead, how about a C6 A6 4.2? Not the S6 with the V10 that again is more maintenance intensive. The A6 would get you the 4.2, and unless specially equipped will avoid the air ride that gets more fix intensive past 100K, etc. Just read this board a bit and I think you will conclude that is the biggest (and pricy) D3 repair area, and is common to all of them. On the C6 A6 4.2, is also the timing chain + FSI (not belt) version like D3's are starting in 2007, or the D4's in general. A6's depreciate like a rock--similar to the D bodies. Thus maybe you might find one of those at a price that works in decent shape. Again, will be six speed tranny to get away from the lemon 5 speed D2/C5. Not the huge back limo seat like W12 though, and you will have to look a long time to find one even starting to approach the same league of options. But, probably not actually very far off your D2 S8 size wise since each generation of each body gets a little bigger, and tech will be a generation + newer. In chronology, C6 was intro'ed about two years after D3 and then ran into early D4 years. Thus it has the D3 technology and drivetrain from circa 2006 or 2007 by and large.
But yes, the W12 is veery unusual. It is really an exotic it terms of volume. As mentioned parts are typically std. Audi price, which means std. German luxury car price. Like your D2 S8. And W12's are loaded, so like any really loaded car, more to keep up. But, a lot of mechanics are probably scared of them. With mine still in family, the last mechanic was adamant something (fairly common) has to be done a certain way. I knew he was wrong, from direct experience. But he is an "Audi mechanic." I finally got on phone and asked him if he ever did one. Answer, sheepishly, nope. Family found a new mechanic...who wants to buy the car. He is comfortable doing work on it. So far from the reports, his prices have been reasonable and he knows the specifics.
Different suggestion. D3's are now getting long in tooth and maybe a bit complex for what you are ready to sign up for. Maybe D4's are too much $$$ still. Instead, how about a C6 A6 4.2? Not the S6 with the V10 that again is more maintenance intensive. The A6 would get you the 4.2, and unless specially equipped will avoid the air ride that gets more fix intensive past 100K, etc. Just read this board a bit and I think you will conclude that is the biggest (and pricy) D3 repair area, and is common to all of them. On the C6 A6 4.2, is also the timing chain + FSI (not belt) version like D3's are starting in 2007, or the D4's in general. A6's depreciate like a rock--similar to the D bodies. Thus maybe you might find one of those at a price that works in decent shape. Again, will be six speed tranny to get away from the lemon 5 speed D2/C5. Not the huge back limo seat like W12 though, and you will have to look a long time to find one even starting to approach the same league of options. But, probably not actually very far off your D2 S8 size wise since each generation of each body gets a little bigger, and tech will be a generation + newer. In chronology, C6 was intro'ed about two years after D3 and then ran into early D4 years. Thus it has the D3 technology and drivetrain from circa 2006 or 2007 by and large.
