transmission troubles
08-27-2014, 08:28 PM
#11
AudiWorld Super User
08-27-2014, 08:41 PM
#12
AudiWorld Super User
BTW, I'm starting to think blue = bunk, though I run it post-change still
Read the hoot TSB carefully and once more for W12's. I think maybe they actually modified it later, long after I first read it. So, in the case of the W12 it actually says, switch to...gold!
Doesn't that undercut essentially any argument there is some magic refinement or additive in blue? I'm now starting to think/realize it was perhaps just some colorant, like they used in Ate Typ 200 brake fluid, in either blue or gold, before the U.S. nailed Ate for selling the blue Typ 200 that is. No info of course on what's going on, but certainly since they are sending W12's back to gold, hard to rationalize much now in my mind.
Alternately, since the ZF LifeGuard 6+ was discontinued by ZF in favor of 8 (even though Audi still sells blue) and the S8 with the similar more powerful motor like the W12 and the same general tranny set up with the beefed up coolers and such uses green/8 as I recall, I'm wondering if blue is just an early version of 8 with a dye marker, before they standardized it on green/8. Doesn't explain the TSB though where Audi sent W12 owners back toward gold for the hoot.
I do still run blue. AudiUSAParts has it in the mid $30 range last I purchased it, and ECS has it for $33.64, a lot less than their green price. But, green can be bought as ZF 8, unlike blue that now only comes from Audi.
Doesn't that undercut essentially any argument there is some magic refinement or additive in blue? I'm now starting to think/realize it was perhaps just some colorant, like they used in Ate Typ 200 brake fluid, in either blue or gold, before the U.S. nailed Ate for selling the blue Typ 200 that is. No info of course on what's going on, but certainly since they are sending W12's back to gold, hard to rationalize much now in my mind.
Alternately, since the ZF LifeGuard 6+ was discontinued by ZF in favor of 8 (even though Audi still sells blue) and the S8 with the similar more powerful motor like the W12 and the same general tranny set up with the beefed up coolers and such uses green/8 as I recall, I'm wondering if blue is just an early version of 8 with a dye marker, before they standardized it on green/8. Doesn't explain the TSB though where Audi sent W12 owners back toward gold for the hoot.
I do still run blue. AudiUSAParts has it in the mid $30 range last I purchased it, and ECS has it for $33.64, a lot less than their green price. But, green can be bought as ZF 8, unlike blue that now only comes from Audi.
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 08-27-2014 at 08:47 PM.
08-27-2014, 09:43 PM
#13
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They recommend changing to blue for 4.2 and changing to gold for W12. Isn't that a way to conceal that life fluid was nonsense? Changing type of oil requires 3 flashes so it would be thoroughly changed.
08-27-2014, 11:03 PM
#14
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man - i need to re-read the comments on the other fluid.
Do you think the new fluid (partial flush) has anything to do with my issue? It did seem to occur shortly after the flush, and is getting more noticeable over time. again she's not telling any tales - clean codes, etc.
08-27-2014, 11:12 PM
#15
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Read the hoot TSB carefully and once more for W12's. I think maybe they actually modified it later, long after I first read it. So, in the case of the W12 it actually says, switch to...gold!
Doesn't that undercut essentially any argument there is some magic refinement or additive in blue? I'm now starting to think/realize it was perhaps just some colorant, like they used in Ate Typ 200 brake fluid, in either blue or gold, before the U.S. nailed Ate for selling the blue Typ 200 that is. No info of course on what's going on, but certainly since they are sending W12's back to gold, hard to rationalize much now in my mind.
Alternately, since the ZF LifeGuard 6+ was discontinued by ZF in favor of 8 (even though Audi still sells blue) and the S8 with the similar more powerful motor like the W12 and the same general tranny set up with the beefed up coolers and such uses green/8 as I recall, I'm wondering if blue is just an early version of 8 with a dye marker, before they standardized it on green/8. Doesn't explain the TSB though where Audi sent W12 owners back toward gold for the hoot.
I do still run blue. AudiUSAParts has it in the mid $30 range last I purchased it, and ECS has it for $33.64, a lot less than their green price. But, green can be bought as ZF 8, unlike blue that now only comes from Audi.
Doesn't that undercut essentially any argument there is some magic refinement or additive in blue? I'm now starting to think/realize it was perhaps just some colorant, like they used in Ate Typ 200 brake fluid, in either blue or gold, before the U.S. nailed Ate for selling the blue Typ 200 that is. No info of course on what's going on, but certainly since they are sending W12's back to gold, hard to rationalize much now in my mind.
Alternately, since the ZF LifeGuard 6+ was discontinued by ZF in favor of 8 (even though Audi still sells blue) and the S8 with the similar more powerful motor like the W12 and the same general tranny set up with the beefed up coolers and such uses green/8 as I recall, I'm wondering if blue is just an early version of 8 with a dye marker, before they standardized it on green/8. Doesn't explain the TSB though where Audi sent W12 owners back toward gold for the hoot.
I do still run blue. AudiUSAParts has it in the mid $30 range last I purchased it, and ECS has it for $33.64, a lot less than their green price. But, green can be bought as ZF 8, unlike blue that now only comes from Audi.
I would think one of the fluids has a different viscosity which would account for it resolving the hoot issue. It never seemed like the proper resolution to the problem and that it would eventually cause tranny problems.
but I'm happy to hear there's not a common problem (that is of owners who had the hoot problem switch to blue only to find out down the road their tranny is screwed up.) seems mine is an isolated incident.
08-28-2014, 06:20 AM
#16
AudiWorld Wiseguy
Customer: My transmission is making a hooting sound.
Audi: oh yes, we know that problem and can fix it. The transmission needs new "special blue" oil.
Customer: mmmmm....blue. How much?
Audi: $1,000+
Customer: $1,000????
Audi: It's blue, that's why it's so expensive.
Customer: mmmm....blue. Ok do it!
Audi: oh crap, we've run out of the blue stuff. Quick someone get some blue food coloring and add it to this gold stuff we have and put it in that A8 up on the ramp over there.
Customer: hey that $1,000+ was really well spent! The free coffee, cookies and wifi were awesome, and the dealer staff so friendly! No more hooting, it's shifting better, and I now have totally awesome super cool blue tranny fluid. Wait till I tell my forum buddies, they'll be soooo jealous!
Summary: all it needed was a regular fluid change, but Audi found a way to charge over a grand to do it.
Audi: oh yes, we know that problem and can fix it. The transmission needs new "special blue" oil.
Customer: mmmmm....blue. How much?
Audi: $1,000+
Customer: $1,000????
Audi: It's blue, that's why it's so expensive.
Customer: mmmm....blue. Ok do it!
Audi: oh crap, we've run out of the blue stuff. Quick someone get some blue food coloring and add it to this gold stuff we have and put it in that A8 up on the ramp over there.
Customer: hey that $1,000+ was really well spent! The free coffee, cookies and wifi were awesome, and the dealer staff so friendly! No more hooting, it's shifting better, and I now have totally awesome super cool blue tranny fluid. Wait till I tell my forum buddies, they'll be soooo jealous!
Summary: all it needed was a regular fluid change, but Audi found a way to charge over a grand to do it.
08-28-2014, 07:17 AM
#17
AudiWorld Super User
In your first message you said that you are sure that he (your mechanic) used same fluid for the last flash. So it would be blue fluid @$40 per liter. Are you sure?
08-28-2014, 09:11 AM
#18
AudiWorld Super User
I stand on my prior comments.
Do the flush--the 3x cycle--or even jut some periodic, serial maintenance drains. But after that, move on from that supposed fix.
As a long time board member, and maybe the one guy posting who has been inside the tranny beyond just a pan drop, I think the TSB has kind of run its course as some magic cure all for a variety of shift issues. That was written when the cars were young and the mileages low. As has been said by another poster or two, its probably the simple fluid changing to fresh lubricant with a fresh additive package that matters more now, IF that will improve the situation.
I have posted about a specific issue I found, and information I got from a respected ZF shop and found from BMW related places that seem to have gotten further into the tranny than in the Audi arena. The work and fix are ugly labor wise in my case, but the fix was also definitive. More generally, that things like valve bodies and solenoids--that control the shifts ultimately--wear and have issues over time is not news since when they first showed up with the D1. I happened to find--as have BMW types--that at least in some cases the o ring based seal upstream from that valve body also has issues.
As a long time board member, and maybe the one guy posting who has been inside the tranny beyond just a pan drop, I think the TSB has kind of run its course as some magic cure all for a variety of shift issues. That was written when the cars were young and the mileages low. As has been said by another poster or two, its probably the simple fluid changing to fresh lubricant with a fresh additive package that matters more now, IF that will improve the situation.
I have posted about a specific issue I found, and information I got from a respected ZF shop and found from BMW related places that seem to have gotten further into the tranny than in the Audi arena. The work and fix are ugly labor wise in my case, but the fix was also definitive. More generally, that things like valve bodies and solenoids--that control the shifts ultimately--wear and have issues over time is not news since when they first showed up with the D1. I happened to find--as have BMW types--that at least in some cases the o ring based seal upstream from that valve body also has issues.
08-28-2014, 09:24 AM
#19
AudiWorld Super User
You might read my prior post again on the tranny
I'm not sure, but I don't think we are saying the same thing. I am saying:
1. Incidences of tranny issues on D3's are not high for the age of the vehicles, at least as far as postings. At a similar time in the D2 or C5 lifecycle-- the postings for the old 5 speed were fairly common and followed a pattern. But the D3 tranny is not a completely lifetime trouble free miracle box either.
2. Drains or flushes seem like a good idea, backed up by what the ZF specialist told me directly. Lead has been phased out as an internal coating on internal wear parts, so it can now be basically steel to steel at some important areas internally that have shift quality ramifications. Some of the parts rely on controlled fluid bleed through at the relevant interfaces, so wear gets things out of spec and can lead to issues.
3. Over time the solenoids and related moving parts and passages can both have issues and get gummed up.
4. The valve body itself is attached internally by a seal assembly that I found visibly distorted on mine, and some BMW owners have found literally crumbling apart which is at THE fluid passage from the main tranny unit into the valve body.
5. There is no definitive or magic test, VAG COM/VCDS or otherwise, that I believe will definitively resolve whether it is issues like various I mention or experienced myself and successfully resolved. Like many things that are not outright tranny failures, it comes down to educated guess work grounded in sets of experiences and cumulative learning.
FWIW, having changed four generations of ATF fluid in Audis from the 3 speed through the 6 speed (the later 3 speeds and the 5 speeds both being kind of lemon trannies longer term broadly speaking), I have never particularly noticed a fluid viscosity change in general. They are all what seems like a light oil. They all seem similar when collected into the recycle jugs and you jostle them too; apparent viscosity kind of similar to conventional brake fluids stored in quantity, though the make up of the two chemically varies of course.
1. Incidences of tranny issues on D3's are not high for the age of the vehicles, at least as far as postings. At a similar time in the D2 or C5 lifecycle-- the postings for the old 5 speed were fairly common and followed a pattern. But the D3 tranny is not a completely lifetime trouble free miracle box either.
2. Drains or flushes seem like a good idea, backed up by what the ZF specialist told me directly. Lead has been phased out as an internal coating on internal wear parts, so it can now be basically steel to steel at some important areas internally that have shift quality ramifications. Some of the parts rely on controlled fluid bleed through at the relevant interfaces, so wear gets things out of spec and can lead to issues.
3. Over time the solenoids and related moving parts and passages can both have issues and get gummed up.
4. The valve body itself is attached internally by a seal assembly that I found visibly distorted on mine, and some BMW owners have found literally crumbling apart which is at THE fluid passage from the main tranny unit into the valve body.
5. There is no definitive or magic test, VAG COM/VCDS or otherwise, that I believe will definitively resolve whether it is issues like various I mention or experienced myself and successfully resolved. Like many things that are not outright tranny failures, it comes down to educated guess work grounded in sets of experiences and cumulative learning.
FWIW, having changed four generations of ATF fluid in Audis from the 3 speed through the 6 speed (the later 3 speeds and the 5 speeds both being kind of lemon trannies longer term broadly speaking), I have never particularly noticed a fluid viscosity change in general. They are all what seems like a light oil. They all seem similar when collected into the recycle jugs and you jostle them too; apparent viscosity kind of similar to conventional brake fluids stored in quantity, though the make up of the two chemically varies of course.
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 08-28-2014 at 09:37 AM.
08-30-2014, 03:18 AM
#20
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Customer: My transmission is making a hooting sound.
Audi: oh yes, we know that problem and can fix it. The transmission needs new "special blue" oil.
Customer: mmmmm....blue. How much?
Audi: $1,000+
Customer: $1,000????
Audi: It's blue, that's why it's so expensive.
Customer: mmmm....blue. Ok do it!
Audi: oh crap, we've run out of the blue stuff. Quick someone get some blue food coloring and add it to this gold stuff we have and put it in that A8 up on the ramp over there.
Customer: hey that $1,000+ was really well spent! The free coffee, cookies and wifi were awesome, and the dealer staff so friendly! No more hooting, it's shifting better, and I now have totally awesome super cool blue tranny fluid. Wait till I tell my forum buddies, they'll be soooo jealous!
Summary: all it needed was a regular fluid change, but Audi found a way to charge over a grand to do it.
Audi: oh yes, we know that problem and can fix it. The transmission needs new "special blue" oil.
Customer: mmmmm....blue. How much?
Audi: $1,000+
Customer: $1,000????
Audi: It's blue, that's why it's so expensive.
Customer: mmmm....blue. Ok do it!
Audi: oh crap, we've run out of the blue stuff. Quick someone get some blue food coloring and add it to this gold stuff we have and put it in that A8 up on the ramp over there.
Customer: hey that $1,000+ was really well spent! The free coffee, cookies and wifi were awesome, and the dealer staff so friendly! No more hooting, it's shifting better, and I now have totally awesome super cool blue tranny fluid. Wait till I tell my forum buddies, they'll be soooo jealous!
Summary: all it needed was a regular fluid change, but Audi found a way to charge over a grand to do it.
Ha yeah that's something the stealer would try to do.
Luckily it happened when my Certified Pre-owned warranty was still in effect (around 60,000 miles) so it didn't cost me a nickel, but the solution never really sat well with me. It just doesn't make much sense to me.
I seem to remember my service advisor showing me a bulletin that Audi published stated this was the fix for the hooting noise. (this was several years ago maybe even 6 or 7 years.)
I can verify that fluid change did silence the hooting, assuming that's all they did.
The 1,000 was my rough calculation for doing a thorough 3 times tranny fluid change. which I'm now paying for since my warranty is over.