'12 4.2 vs ?'13 3.0T vs '14 3.0TDI
08-22-2014, 07:29 AM
#1
AudiWorld Member
Thread Starter
'12 4.2 vs ?'13 3.0T vs '14 3.0TDI
I drive a 2012 4.2 NWB as my daily driver. Recently I had some very minor trouble with my rear sunshade, which my dealer fixed under warranty, but which needed two trips to the dealership (one to investigate, and after the part was ordered, another to fit it). While it was in, I had two different loaner cars, a LWB 3.0T (“think” it was a ’13) and just yesterday a 2014 3.0TDI.
I’ve seen several queries on here from prospective buyers wondering about the differences, so I thought I jot down how I felt about the cars and their driving experience. Obviously, I’m most familiar with the 4.2, so treat every observation as a comparison against that. It is of course possible that some of the differences noted are NWB vs LWB, and due to the small extra weight, but since I’m going to be mostly talking about power delivery and not handling, I think I’ve filtered that out…and anyhow, I’m not entirely certain I’m a keen enough observer to have really noted the distinction. No doubt, someone with finely tuned instruments could pick out a tenth of a second here and there…this is just my version of what it felt like through the seat of my pants ☺
General:
Somewhat to my surprise, each of the models felt rather similar to drive. All of them have plenty of power for a mix of city and freeway driving, and decent quantities of grunt when you need it. IMO, it is very fair to compare the models as they deliver a roughly similar driving experience. All were equipped to pretty similar standards, ‘though I’d confess to having some tech lust after the parking camera system on the 2014 – very cool.
3.0T vs 4.2
The model I had was de-badged, so I actually didn’t know what I was driving for the initial 6-7 miles (suburban driving). Under sedate driving, I found very little difference in throttle response, and it was only when I got on to some quieter roads that I started to notice that it was different to my normal car. In real world terms, neither faster nor slower, just different – at the same level of throttle pressure, the acceleration available was different. At first I put it down to being just a different car, but after a few miles I got out, opened the hood and counter cylinders, just to make sure.
The best way I can describe the difference is to say that the 4.2 gives you a pretty linear acceleration as it climbs the rev range – building up to a peak, but doing it fairly smoothly. The 3.0T feels similar (maybe a shade more sluggish) up to about 1500-1750 RPM and then has a subtle, but notable build in power. I’m not a mechanical engineer, but in my fantasy land where I understand engines, I assume this was related to when the S/C kicked in.
Once I got up to freeway cruising speeds, there wasn’t really any great difference in available acceleration.
3.0 TDI vs 4.2
There’s a much bigger difference in throttle response / acceleration between these models. I assume the torque curve is a completely different shape.
At low RPM (<1200) the TDI felt comparatively short on power – it got rolling well enough, but there was always a little bit of play in the accelerator that didn’t get the acceleration response I’m used to in the 4.2.
Push the accelerator in a little harder, and you wake up the 3.0 (I assume this is the turbos) with a very satisfying surge of power around 1700-2000 RPM.
It took me a few miles of driving to get used to using the accelerator differently – to get it to perform well, you need to give it a little more pressure on the accelerator than the 4.2 – but once I got the hang of it I could make it go well enough. Putting the transmission on the 3.0TDI into 'sport' mode made just enough changes to make the 3.0TDI drive like my 4.2 in ‘D’.
This slackness in the first inch of the throttle was pretty evident at freeway speeds also, but again once I got in the habit of opening the throttle further, I could make it perform well enough.
At one point, while driving through downtown Seattle, a UPS van made an unexpected maneuver in front of me, and I had to brake hard, and then accelerate hard to get back into the flow of traffic – afterwards I realized that in a soft emergency, the 3.0TDI had performed just like I expected my more familiar 4.2 to do. I guess the lesson there is ‘stand on the gas and she wakes up and roars’ ;-).
I’m not sure exactly how full the tank was on the diesel, but the mileage indicator when I got into her gave a range of 730 Miles with a full reading on the fuel gauge. A full tank on the 4.2 usually indicates 450, of which on the combined cycle I normally get around 400.
Overall?
Short version; the 3.0T performs very similarly to the 4.2. The 3.0TDI can perform like the 4.2, but you have to work it a bit harder. If the extra 40% or so range in the TDI is interesting to you, or you do mainly freeway driving where low end acceleration isn’t that important, then the TDI is probably worth considering.
If you want to hoon about then I suspect that the 4.0T or an S8 is your choice…but I haven’t driven those yet….
Final piece of advice for anyone caught between decisions; if driving dynamics are something that matters to your decision matrix, then go for a good long test drive in mixed environments in all of the models before making up your mind – you won’t appreciate the differences in a quick spin around the block and you won’t understand whether the differences in power delivery is something you can cope with or a deal breaker.
Hope this is useful to anyone thinking about getting one of these lovely cars.
John
I’ve seen several queries on here from prospective buyers wondering about the differences, so I thought I jot down how I felt about the cars and their driving experience. Obviously, I’m most familiar with the 4.2, so treat every observation as a comparison against that. It is of course possible that some of the differences noted are NWB vs LWB, and due to the small extra weight, but since I’m going to be mostly talking about power delivery and not handling, I think I’ve filtered that out…and anyhow, I’m not entirely certain I’m a keen enough observer to have really noted the distinction. No doubt, someone with finely tuned instruments could pick out a tenth of a second here and there…this is just my version of what it felt like through the seat of my pants ☺
General:
Somewhat to my surprise, each of the models felt rather similar to drive. All of them have plenty of power for a mix of city and freeway driving, and decent quantities of grunt when you need it. IMO, it is very fair to compare the models as they deliver a roughly similar driving experience. All were equipped to pretty similar standards, ‘though I’d confess to having some tech lust after the parking camera system on the 2014 – very cool.
3.0T vs 4.2
The model I had was de-badged, so I actually didn’t know what I was driving for the initial 6-7 miles (suburban driving). Under sedate driving, I found very little difference in throttle response, and it was only when I got on to some quieter roads that I started to notice that it was different to my normal car. In real world terms, neither faster nor slower, just different – at the same level of throttle pressure, the acceleration available was different. At first I put it down to being just a different car, but after a few miles I got out, opened the hood and counter cylinders, just to make sure.
The best way I can describe the difference is to say that the 4.2 gives you a pretty linear acceleration as it climbs the rev range – building up to a peak, but doing it fairly smoothly. The 3.0T feels similar (maybe a shade more sluggish) up to about 1500-1750 RPM and then has a subtle, but notable build in power. I’m not a mechanical engineer, but in my fantasy land where I understand engines, I assume this was related to when the S/C kicked in.
Once I got up to freeway cruising speeds, there wasn’t really any great difference in available acceleration.
3.0 TDI vs 4.2
There’s a much bigger difference in throttle response / acceleration between these models. I assume the torque curve is a completely different shape.
At low RPM (<1200) the TDI felt comparatively short on power – it got rolling well enough, but there was always a little bit of play in the accelerator that didn’t get the acceleration response I’m used to in the 4.2.
Push the accelerator in a little harder, and you wake up the 3.0 (I assume this is the turbos) with a very satisfying surge of power around 1700-2000 RPM.
It took me a few miles of driving to get used to using the accelerator differently – to get it to perform well, you need to give it a little more pressure on the accelerator than the 4.2 – but once I got the hang of it I could make it go well enough. Putting the transmission on the 3.0TDI into 'sport' mode made just enough changes to make the 3.0TDI drive like my 4.2 in ‘D’.
This slackness in the first inch of the throttle was pretty evident at freeway speeds also, but again once I got in the habit of opening the throttle further, I could make it perform well enough.
At one point, while driving through downtown Seattle, a UPS van made an unexpected maneuver in front of me, and I had to brake hard, and then accelerate hard to get back into the flow of traffic – afterwards I realized that in a soft emergency, the 3.0TDI had performed just like I expected my more familiar 4.2 to do. I guess the lesson there is ‘stand on the gas and she wakes up and roars’ ;-).
I’m not sure exactly how full the tank was on the diesel, but the mileage indicator when I got into her gave a range of 730 Miles with a full reading on the fuel gauge. A full tank on the 4.2 usually indicates 450, of which on the combined cycle I normally get around 400.
Overall?
Short version; the 3.0T performs very similarly to the 4.2. The 3.0TDI can perform like the 4.2, but you have to work it a bit harder. If the extra 40% or so range in the TDI is interesting to you, or you do mainly freeway driving where low end acceleration isn’t that important, then the TDI is probably worth considering.
If you want to hoon about then I suspect that the 4.0T or an S8 is your choice…but I haven’t driven those yet….
Final piece of advice for anyone caught between decisions; if driving dynamics are something that matters to your decision matrix, then go for a good long test drive in mixed environments in all of the models before making up your mind – you won’t appreciate the differences in a quick spin around the block and you won’t understand whether the differences in power delivery is something you can cope with or a deal breaker.
Hope this is useful to anyone thinking about getting one of these lovely cars.
John
08-23-2014, 05:05 AM
#2
AudiWorld Member
John, I appreciate your info. I own a 2007 NWB and I like the 4.2 V8, and I was curious whether the 3.0T would be a suitable replacement. I really don't want cylinder deactivation or throttle lag which appears to plague the 4.0T. I am beginning to think my 07 A8 is a bit of a high water mark in that it has a na v8 and a full size spare tire. Mike
08-23-2014, 05:30 AM
#3
Thanks for that assessment John. It matches pretty much what my opinion is too. I'd been lusting for years for an A8 but wanted to make sure I got the right bang for the buck since buying one was a stretch for me financially. I've had V8 Cadillac's for many years, both Northstars and my latest a 2005 CTS-V with the 400 hp Corvette V8 and have always preferred the feel and sound of a V8. In a new A8 that automatically raises the price over the 6 by about $7-8k so while I really wanted an V8, the V6 was more attainable. I'd driven the 3.0T, 3.0TDI, 4.0T, and S8 as well as a preowned 4.2 and actually really liked them all. I ended up with a dealer demo '14 3.0T and have been really happy with it. Power has been more than adequate and the fuel economy is amazing for such a big heavy car. It is faster than all my Northstar V8's were and not far behind the CTS-V. If one has the $$$ to do it I would always go for the 4.0T, but this 3.0T really is an amazing motor!
10-03-2014, 10:45 AM
#4
AudiWorld Member
Thread Starter
Adding the 4.0T
Well, my 4.2 is in for a service and my dealer loaned me a 2014 NWB 4.0T to drive for the few hours they'll have it. So naturally I took the morning off work to go and have a bit of a play and see what I thought. Initial run was about 8-10 miles through a city and some suburbs, then 25 miles or so on a local B road with some decent elevation changes and a variety of curves, and then back home along the interstate.
The first few miles contained three big impressions for me: 1) doesn't feel that much faster then the 4.2 2) steering is different, very stiff and very little feel 3) throttle lag is really really annoying (feels like you have to push hard on the gas to get any thing like a response.
Around town, with the transmission in D, the 4.0T felt heavier and more sluggish than my 4.2 - mainly I think due to the steering and throttle lag.
Once I got out onto the B road, I switched between D and S and messed with the Dynamic vs Comfort settings a bit, and the 4.0T felt just like the 4.2 to drive. Probably a little bit faster, and with a notable surge of power after the first inch or so on the throttle, but overall it felt much the same. I was disappointed here, as I'd kinda expected the 4.0T to really light up on this type of road and feel much sportier, but it didn't.
At the end of the B road I joined the interstate with a fairly long uphill ramp, and holy crap there is a LOT of power and acceleration there. Felt like a totally different vehicle under sustained acceleration - revs up to 5.5K and pulling hard at license threatening speeds by the time I crested the hill to merge.
I got to play a little on the Interstate and urban freeway on the way home, and 'think' I learned how to use this awesome vehicle. At low throttle inputs (changing speeds by ~5mph) it feels like a luxo barge - smooth, unruffled, sedate, a bit heavy. Push harder and longer on the loud pedal and it totally transforms into a light, speedy, agile, dare I say it, sporty car.
There's a much bigger gulf between the Jackal and Hyde personas of this version of the A8. I haven't yet found the middle ground, or how to transition smoothly between the modes, and I don't know yet whether I like it - the sluggishness at lower speeds frustrated me, and the massive whoosh of power at higher speeds unnerved me a little as I wasn't quite expecting it. Think I better spend the afternoon doing a few more miles so that I can make my mind up :-)
As it's been a topic recently, on that ~50 mile run I got 25mpg or so, which os pretty good as I was definitely playing with the throttle to understand it's response. Clearly could do better with smoother driving.
Only other thing of note was the auto engine off at stops. I didn't think this version was as well done as others. There's a noticeable lurch in the car when it kicks in - clutch to neutral, engine off - that feels about like a large passenger changing positions in the rear seat. It's also not super fast to restart; wasn't always ready to go by the time I transitioned my foot from the brake to the throttle. I had a 5-series Diesel rental in Europe a few weeks back that was much smoother.
I was excited to drive the 4.0T as I've just started thinking about what comes after the 4.2 when I replace it in a year or so. The NWB 4.0T would have been top of my list yesterday, but today it's not so clear cut. Assuming it's mechanically sound, perhaps I'll hold onto the 4.2 for a few more years...
The first few miles contained three big impressions for me: 1) doesn't feel that much faster then the 4.2 2) steering is different, very stiff and very little feel 3) throttle lag is really really annoying (feels like you have to push hard on the gas to get any thing like a response.
Around town, with the transmission in D, the 4.0T felt heavier and more sluggish than my 4.2 - mainly I think due to the steering and throttle lag.
Once I got out onto the B road, I switched between D and S and messed with the Dynamic vs Comfort settings a bit, and the 4.0T felt just like the 4.2 to drive. Probably a little bit faster, and with a notable surge of power after the first inch or so on the throttle, but overall it felt much the same. I was disappointed here, as I'd kinda expected the 4.0T to really light up on this type of road and feel much sportier, but it didn't.
At the end of the B road I joined the interstate with a fairly long uphill ramp, and holy crap there is a LOT of power and acceleration there. Felt like a totally different vehicle under sustained acceleration - revs up to 5.5K and pulling hard at license threatening speeds by the time I crested the hill to merge.
I got to play a little on the Interstate and urban freeway on the way home, and 'think' I learned how to use this awesome vehicle. At low throttle inputs (changing speeds by ~5mph) it feels like a luxo barge - smooth, unruffled, sedate, a bit heavy. Push harder and longer on the loud pedal and it totally transforms into a light, speedy, agile, dare I say it, sporty car.
There's a much bigger gulf between the Jackal and Hyde personas of this version of the A8. I haven't yet found the middle ground, or how to transition smoothly between the modes, and I don't know yet whether I like it - the sluggishness at lower speeds frustrated me, and the massive whoosh of power at higher speeds unnerved me a little as I wasn't quite expecting it. Think I better spend the afternoon doing a few more miles so that I can make my mind up :-)
As it's been a topic recently, on that ~50 mile run I got 25mpg or so, which os pretty good as I was definitely playing with the throttle to understand it's response. Clearly could do better with smoother driving.
Only other thing of note was the auto engine off at stops. I didn't think this version was as well done as others. There's a noticeable lurch in the car when it kicks in - clutch to neutral, engine off - that feels about like a large passenger changing positions in the rear seat. It's also not super fast to restart; wasn't always ready to go by the time I transitioned my foot from the brake to the throttle. I had a 5-series Diesel rental in Europe a few weeks back that was much smoother.
I was excited to drive the 4.0T as I've just started thinking about what comes after the 4.2 when I replace it in a year or so. The NWB 4.0T would have been top of my list yesterday, but today it's not so clear cut. Assuming it's mechanically sound, perhaps I'll hold onto the 4.2 for a few more years...
10-03-2014, 11:42 AM
#5
AudiWorld Super User
I was excited to drive the 4.0T as I've just started thinking about what comes after the 4.2 when I replace it in a year or so. The NWB 4.0T would have been top of my list yesterday, but today it's not so clear cut. Assuming it's mechanically sound, perhaps I'll hold onto the 4.2 for a few more years...
Out of curiosity was the 2014 in the same 'mode' as you normally drive (e.g. Auto, Comfort, etc) ?
10-03-2014, 01:03 PM
#6
AudiWorld Member
Thread Starter
I also took the car over the route I use for commuting, so I was fairly familiar with how my 4.2 normally feels on it.
I guess our standard advice holds true here - go for a good long test drive, 'though in this instance it's not just a comparison against the 3.0t or the TDI or a Merc/BMW/Jag, but also a comparison against itself.
As I went through the test drive I found my thought progression going something like: 'feels just like the 4.2', 'hmm bit more sluggish through these bends than I'd expected', 'holy cow, that's awesomely fast and cool', 'ugh, back to being a bit sluggish again, that's so annoying when I know it can be awesome'.
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10-04-2014, 04:03 AM
#8
AudiWorld Super User
ECU remap for 4.0t APR Audi A8 & A8L 4.0 TFSI V8 ECU Upgrade
+90hp and +127tq.
should make it pretty different to drive
+90hp and +127tq.
should make it pretty different to drive
Really prefer not to trigger a TD1 though....
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