Beginning and end of D5 competition; not impressed by Audi's release
07-11-2017, 07:11 PM
#11
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
I agree with you, but different than the car selling part. They are not in mass market yet, but then neither is the D4/5 or other German luxobarge competitors. Tesla has been very adept at fleecing both government agencies for corporate welfare and benefits and having a cost o f capital close to zero. They are essentially still wrapping many dozens of Franklins around every S they sell at a quasi loss, but are just substituting funny money from the equity markets. But had you invested D4 money in Telsa in last year or so, you would have enough to buy both a Tesla minivan or S or whatever and a D5.
07-11-2017, 07:13 PM
#12
AudiWorld Super User
Electrics to me include plug in hybrids. To say after four years they don't have the approvals seems like a joke to me. Oh, and those approvals aren't US type regulatory numbers I have seen either, so more smoke. Plug in hybrids will essentially be required to sell luxo-barges for Euro exec's driven in large Euro cities in coming years--I'm referring to Umwelt (environmental) zones in inner cities for those who know the issue. So a no brainer Audi needs it for D5.
Again, not a Tesla fan boy, so don't get lost there. But they are eating the A8's lunch, and even almost new design Merc and BMW. I actually think Tesla is selling as much or more on the gimmicks, the iPhone type cool factor (and screen) and the automation these days. I just look around and it is Tesla's everywhere, D4's essentially nowhere. Doesn't take a rocket scientist, no matter the source/bearer of the bad news stats. Meantime, gotta have electric capabilities, including plug ins. And even if I personally might by an S8. Going upstream against where the sales traction is, or at least not even having an entry in the race, seems like a really crap product marketing and planning decision to me.
Frankly even on strictly "conventional motors," I expect more at a car launch for what will be US spec cars than essentially a V6 out of an S4. I guess it is the newer one since in one place in the Audi press release it refers to a "turbo," not a supercharger. Meantime it seems like D5 got a little lost in their trying to mimick a big Apple or Oracle or whomever type event/show. Parse through it and between the TDI's that are history here, the uber low volume W12 that ain't finalized even and the 4.0T that is delayed launch, they just announced what appears to be...a grand total of one motor for the US market. Not clear to me on 4.0T they are really just saying a slightly revised spec sheet, add 10HP current motor (as they have 3 times on D4), or the "delayed launch" means they are cutting over to the Porsche supplied variant since Porsche now has the lead for them. Meantime, reminds me of the Q7 which like 18 months in now in U.S. for second generation still has...one motor.
Again, not a Tesla fan boy, so don't get lost there. But they are eating the A8's lunch, and even almost new design Merc and BMW. I actually think Tesla is selling as much or more on the gimmicks, the iPhone type cool factor (and screen) and the automation these days. I just look around and it is Tesla's everywhere, D4's essentially nowhere. Doesn't take a rocket scientist, no matter the source/bearer of the bad news stats. Meantime, gotta have electric capabilities, including plug ins. And even if I personally might by an S8. Going upstream against where the sales traction is, or at least not even having an entry in the race, seems like a really crap product marketing and planning decision to me.
Frankly even on strictly "conventional motors," I expect more at a car launch for what will be US spec cars than essentially a V6 out of an S4. I guess it is the newer one since in one place in the Audi press release it refers to a "turbo," not a supercharger. Meantime it seems like D5 got a little lost in their trying to mimick a big Apple or Oracle or whomever type event/show. Parse through it and between the TDI's that are history here, the uber low volume W12 that ain't finalized even and the 4.0T that is delayed launch, they just announced what appears to be...a grand total of one motor for the US market. Not clear to me on 4.0T they are really just saying a slightly revised spec sheet, add 10HP current motor (as they have 3 times on D4), or the "delayed launch" means they are cutting over to the Porsche supplied variant since Porsche now has the lead for them. Meantime, reminds me of the Q7 which like 18 months in now in U.S. for second generation still has...one motor.
07-11-2017, 07:19 PM
#13
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
Oops, you're right. I forgot about...the recently intro'ed 2.0T. Having just had a Q7 loaner with the 3.0T, even 3.0T is not in my future with that pork. Sea of plastic too; didn't help the dealer didn't clean the kids junk food wrappers from under the seats either. Still hoping maybe SQ8 is less nice minivan and more luxury.
07-12-2017, 07:46 AM
#14
I think these sales numbers are misleading without also looking at SUV sales. Many people I know who would have been in the market for an A8 in the past have chosen a current generation Q7 instead. So you have this effect and the Tesla effect eating away at opposite sides of the market segment.
07-12-2017, 07:54 AM
#15
AudiWorld Super User
Electrics to me include plug in hybrids. To say after four years they don't have the approvals seems like a joke to me. Oh, and those approvals aren't US type regulatory numbers I have seen either, so more smoke. Plug in hybrids will essentially be required to sell luxo-barges for Euro exec's driven in large Euro cities in coming years--I'm referring to Umwelt (environmental) zones in inner cities for those who know the issue. So a no brainer Audi needs it for D5.
Again, not a Tesla fan boy, so don't get lost there. But they are eating the A8's lunch, and even almost new design Merc and BMW. I actually think Tesla is selling as much or more on the gimmicks, the iPhone type cool factor (and screen) and the automation these days. I just look around and it is Tesla's everywhere, D4's essentially nowhere. Doesn't take a rocket scientist, no matter the source/bearer of the bad news stats. Meantime, gotta have electric capabilities, including plug ins. And even if I personally might by an S8. Going upstream against where the sales traction is, or at least not even having an entry in the race, seems like a really crap product marketing and planning decision to me.
Frankly even on strictly "conventional motors," I expect more at a car launch for what will be US spec cars than essentially a V6 out of an S4. I guess it is the newer one since in one place in the Audi press release it refers to a "turbo," not a supercharger. Meantime it seems like D5 got a little lost in their trying to mimick a big Apple or Oracle or whomever type event/show. Parse through it and between the TDI's that are history here, the uber low volume W12 that ain't finalized even and the 4.0T that is delayed launch, they just announced what appears to be...a grand total of one motor for the US market. Not clear to me on 4.0T they are really just saying a slightly revised spec sheet, add 10HP current motor (as they have 3 times on D4), or the "delayed launch" means they are cutting over to the Porsche supplied variant since Porsche now has the lead for them. Meantime, reminds me of the Q7 which like 18 months in now in U.S. for second generation still has...one motor.
Again, not a Tesla fan boy, so don't get lost there. But they are eating the A8's lunch, and even almost new design Merc and BMW. I actually think Tesla is selling as much or more on the gimmicks, the iPhone type cool factor (and screen) and the automation these days. I just look around and it is Tesla's everywhere, D4's essentially nowhere. Doesn't take a rocket scientist, no matter the source/bearer of the bad news stats. Meantime, gotta have electric capabilities, including plug ins. And even if I personally might by an S8. Going upstream against where the sales traction is, or at least not even having an entry in the race, seems like a really crap product marketing and planning decision to me.
Frankly even on strictly "conventional motors," I expect more at a car launch for what will be US spec cars than essentially a V6 out of an S4. I guess it is the newer one since in one place in the Audi press release it refers to a "turbo," not a supercharger. Meantime it seems like D5 got a little lost in their trying to mimick a big Apple or Oracle or whomever type event/show. Parse through it and between the TDI's that are history here, the uber low volume W12 that ain't finalized even and the 4.0T that is delayed launch, they just announced what appears to be...a grand total of one motor for the US market. Not clear to me on 4.0T they are really just saying a slightly revised spec sheet, add 10HP current motor (as they have 3 times on D4), or the "delayed launch" means they are cutting over to the Porsche supplied variant since Porsche now has the lead for them. Meantime, reminds me of the Q7 which like 18 months in now in U.S. for second generation still has...one motor.
Everything, in other words, is relative.
07-12-2017, 05:30 PM
#16
AudiWorld Senior Member
Absolutely SCarGuy! Hilton Head, Charleston, Savannah,etc. are hardly "blue hair cities". Not as populated but lots of $$$$ and rarely, very rarely a Tesla in sight. Beacoup SUV's, Bimmers, Merc's, Lexus and Audi's everywhere. See far more Bentleys, Maserati's and Ferrari's than Tesla. Audi knows their demographics and audience quite well and I cannot imagine anyone considering an A/S8 even thinking about a Tesla.
07-12-2017, 07:41 PM
#17
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
The numbers are the numbers. They have been decimated in CA on D series. Again, not just NorCal--the selling SoCal dealer (Newport) admitted as much to me there too. I can tell you that from owning both D3 and D4 there were far more then late model D3's in their day than D4's in general. Have literally never seen a D4 W12 on the road here. I see another D4 S8 once a month, maybe, and a D4 A8 in general maybe weekly. Lots of Audis to be clear--led by Q5 like rest of country now--but not D bodies these days. In a metro area probably pushing 5MM now. Had 3 other D3 W12's (I knew of) in my 30K population town ten years ago--a car that only sold a few hundred per year nationwide on average in its day. FL is historically biggest D body market, though CA was a close second. But in aggregate the D4 is now an also ran nationwide. Unfortunate. Special car, but it is what it is. Same situation in the Vaterland apparently these days too--they don't like to talk about that either--let alone the tax maxed places like Norway.
Meanwhile, here is an article from NYT about electrics. Tide turning likely. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/08/c...av=bottom-well But regardless, VW says it will be tied for what Tesla is also claiming by 2025 at one million electric vehicles per year. See the article. Yeah, they probably need to lay off the crack some as they try to sing from post TDI reform hymnal, but that is what they say. Since classically they (like many manufacturers) use trickle down in roll outs of new technology, you would expect it in D5, which will run through 2025, let alone be the supposed flagship. Put as much lipstick on it as you want, but they plain missed it to my mind on this intro. Even lamer that they billed it as a big techno showcase, yet the drivetrains come up like almost afterthoughts from my perception. I assume it was not ready for prime time and they had already delayed D5 into/announce even before the TDI debacle had really settled in.
Again, this is just one of the options to put it in context. There is also plug in, straight gas and so on. TDI doesn't do squat in US market now, so they basically into'ed the car with only one motor pinned down for US purposes. Since USA and Europe are their primary D4 markets, I would expect better. Hopefully the US roll out is better than this one was. More meat, less social media fluff next time would be my preference.
Meanwhile, here is an article from NYT about electrics. Tide turning likely. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/08/c...av=bottom-well But regardless, VW says it will be tied for what Tesla is also claiming by 2025 at one million electric vehicles per year. See the article. Yeah, they probably need to lay off the crack some as they try to sing from post TDI reform hymnal, but that is what they say. Since classically they (like many manufacturers) use trickle down in roll outs of new technology, you would expect it in D5, which will run through 2025, let alone be the supposed flagship. Put as much lipstick on it as you want, but they plain missed it to my mind on this intro. Even lamer that they billed it as a big techno showcase, yet the drivetrains come up like almost afterthoughts from my perception. I assume it was not ready for prime time and they had already delayed D5 into/announce even before the TDI debacle had really settled in.
Again, this is just one of the options to put it in context. There is also plug in, straight gas and so on. TDI doesn't do squat in US market now, so they basically into'ed the car with only one motor pinned down for US purposes. Since USA and Europe are their primary D4 markets, I would expect better. Hopefully the US roll out is better than this one was. More meat, less social media fluff next time would be my preference.
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 07-12-2017 at 07:54 PM.
07-14-2017, 04:41 AM
#18
Audiworld Junior Member
Table below says it all. From: https://www.yahoo.com/tech/tesla-mod...190134301.html
Come on guys, you are being eaten for lunch. Here in Silicon Valley, big Audis are a total afterthought these days and oh so yesterday. Meantime Teslas are dime a dozen Atherton Poniacs, yet sold at same price point as A8 to S8 range. Same sorry situation now in SoCal from what dealer admitted when I bought my CPO. I can guess it is headed that way in #1 A8 market--FL geezers too. Look at table below--almost rounding error nationwide.
Skip the comparo's almost these days to the Merc. Look at the sales table. Audi just can't seem to think this way. Center of the universe German think. Come on, you literally have executives now under indictment, some in jail awaiting trial on TDI debacle. You have greenwashed the world with your "new" strategy on lots o' electric vehicles and paid many billions. Yet on big announce day, you couldn't show something definitive--or at least get the press out about it from anything I have read so far. About specifics of your electric strategy down to actual available product and not just marketing platitudes? You have had what--four years or more on development, Q5 hybrid back to 2012/2013, going on 2 years since your TDI fraud was outed, etc. Faulty launch by my expectations, let alone real world market metrics.
Next time, Audi you might get a new marketing team gets a hell of a lot better info out there than what I have found so far. And while you are at it, address and compete with the market two years ago, let alone almost a year from now when you will finally get the car here.
Come on guys, you are being eaten for lunch. Here in Silicon Valley, big Audis are a total afterthought these days and oh so yesterday. Meantime Teslas are dime a dozen Atherton Poniacs, yet sold at same price point as A8 to S8 range. Same sorry situation now in SoCal from what dealer admitted when I bought my CPO. I can guess it is headed that way in #1 A8 market--FL geezers too. Look at table below--almost rounding error nationwide.
Skip the comparo's almost these days to the Merc. Look at the sales table. Audi just can't seem to think this way. Center of the universe German think. Come on, you literally have executives now under indictment, some in jail awaiting trial on TDI debacle. You have greenwashed the world with your "new" strategy on lots o' electric vehicles and paid many billions. Yet on big announce day, you couldn't show something definitive--or at least get the press out about it from anything I have read so far. About specifics of your electric strategy down to actual available product and not just marketing platitudes? You have had what--four years or more on development, Q5 hybrid back to 2012/2013, going on 2 years since your TDI fraud was outed, etc. Faulty launch by my expectations, let alone real world market metrics.
Next time, Audi you might get a new marketing team gets a hell of a lot better info out there than what I have found so far. And while you are at it, address and compete with the market two years ago, let alone almost a year from now when you will finally get the car here.
P.S. Anyone who knows my posts knows I am anything but a Tesla fan boy. If they could build to now Audi quality and to leading edge Audi interiors, maybe. But at this rate, may be an S gen 2 instead of D5. Audi, get in the game. America's game, not German luxobarge centric for dinosaurs. Oh, and never mind their clock is being cleaned on home turf too, but that's another set of data.
Panamera shows similar gain to Tesla because of the new car was just introduced.
As far as Tesla, typical socialist success story but how long can you continue to spend OTHER people's money?
Also, Silicon Valley is the bastion of liberalism and political correctness.....
Last edited by absent; 07-14-2017 at 04:43 AM.
07-14-2017, 05:27 AM
#19
AudiWorld Super User
Irrelevant chart to judge Audi lack of success, 2016 and 17 were the dying throes of A8 so no wonder the sales suck.
Panamera shows similar gain to Tesla because of the new car was just introduced.
As far as Tesla, typical socialist success story but how long can you continue to spend OTHER people's money?
Also, Silicon Valley is the bastion of liberalism and political correctness.....
Panamera shows similar gain to Tesla because of the new car was just introduced.
As far as Tesla, typical socialist success story but how long can you continue to spend OTHER people's money?
Also, Silicon Valley is the bastion of liberalism and political correctness.....
07-14-2017, 08:07 AM
#20
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
Irrelevant chart to judge Audi lack of success, 2016 and 17 were the dying throes of A8 so no wonder the sales suck.
Panamera shows similar gain to Tesla because of the new car was just introduced.
As far as Tesla, typical socialist success story but how long can you continue to spend OTHER people's money?
Also, Silicon Valley is the bastion of liberalism and political correctness.....
Panamera shows similar gain to Tesla because of the new car was just introduced.
As far as Tesla, typical socialist success story but how long can you continue to spend OTHER people's money?
Also, Silicon Valley is the bastion of liberalism and political correctness.....
The numbers are the numbers and are nationwide. Sales on D4 have been anemic actually for years, and facelift only briefly and modestly moved the needle. Staying on message, again, Audi and VW say they intend to be a/the leader in electric. Don't know how that fits the politics rhetoric, though not exactly Silicon Valley centric given it (VW overall) is the leading worldwide manufacturer now by volume. I call it broader of even including plug ins. Yet at their own carefully scripted roll out, they no show basically on either one, serving up only future promises and stories. While at it, they also weren't more specific than one U.S. drivetrain. Sorry that the facts are getting in the way.
Last edited by MP4.2+6.0; 07-15-2017 at 02:40 PM.