New day.......
12-02-2009, 04:20 PM
#11
AudiWorld Super User
"My current 2009 shakes and shakes. Even in park. If you have a 2009, park the car and open the driver door and watch it shake back and forth almost .5 to .75" in both directions. This new 370 HP version will be even worse."
Well, I have a 2008 and the engine's quite smooth---no shakes/vibrations. It's the same engine as in the '09, so you really can't make such a macro-statement, and then apply it to the D4. It's a shame you're having problems with your car; hopefully you can get someone at another dealer to correctly diagnose the issue and resolve it to your satisfaction.
Oh, BTW, not too sure about the vintage of the 4.2 motor. I believe the Audi V8 D1 platform utilized a different motor, which was actually the mating of two VW 4-cylinder engines. I think the present 4.2 engine's architecture was introduced with the D2 A8, alongside the 3.7 V8 (275-hp) engine, which soon disappeared. I could be wrong, I suppose.
Well, I have a 2008 and the engine's quite smooth---no shakes/vibrations. It's the same engine as in the '09, so you really can't make such a macro-statement, and then apply it to the D4. It's a shame you're having problems with your car; hopefully you can get someone at another dealer to correctly diagnose the issue and resolve it to your satisfaction.
Oh, BTW, not too sure about the vintage of the 4.2 motor. I believe the Audi V8 D1 platform utilized a different motor, which was actually the mating of two VW 4-cylinder engines. I think the present 4.2 engine's architecture was introduced with the D2 A8, alongside the 3.7 V8 (275-hp) engine, which soon disappeared. I could be wrong, I suppose.
12-02-2009, 04:37 PM
#12
AudiWorld Super User
They have gotten everything they can out of the 4.2 V8. It has good output for its size but just can't compete with the 5.5 liter V8 from S550 or twin-turbo 4.4 V8 from the BMW 750i. The 372 hp rating is bottom of the luxury group but at least in the ballpark of the 750i/S550/LS460. However, the 328 lb-ft of torque trails them all and by a huge margin. They would have been better off going with a larger engine for higher output and maintaining the current gas mileage with the use of the 8-speed transmission.
I will reserve judgment on the exterior until I see it in person. The cars unveiled yesterday did not look very interesting on the exterior but that may be due to unfortunate choices in color and rim designs (who uses chrome rims anymore?). The interior is great but I was expecting the pop-up MMI screen to be gone and replaced by something similar to the rest of the Audi line-up. It just doesn't look quite right in the deployed position. The rest of the interior is top notch and surpasses the S-Class and 7-Series in both design and execution.
The rear end of the D3 seems nicer than the D4 whose taillights are too similar to the A5/S5's. All in all, a safe redesign but not the revolutionary redesign they advertised during speeches before they unveiled the car.
I will reserve judgment on the exterior until I see it in person. The cars unveiled yesterday did not look very interesting on the exterior but that may be due to unfortunate choices in color and rim designs (who uses chrome rims anymore?). The interior is great but I was expecting the pop-up MMI screen to be gone and replaced by something similar to the rest of the Audi line-up. It just doesn't look quite right in the deployed position. The rest of the interior is top notch and surpasses the S-Class and 7-Series in both design and execution.
The rear end of the D3 seems nicer than the D4 whose taillights are too similar to the A5/S5's. All in all, a safe redesign but not the revolutionary redesign they advertised during speeches before they unveiled the car.
12-02-2009, 10:17 PM
#13
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The A8 4.2 is the entry level A8 in the states, so why would they care about the S550 which is not the entry level A8 in the states, or Europe for that matter. The A8 4.2 is not the entry level in Eruope. The 4.2 is not meant to compete with the S550.
They have gotten everything they can out of the 4.2 V8. It has good output for its size but just can't compete with the 5.5 liter V8 from S550 or twin-turbo 4.4 V8 from the BMW 750i. The 372 hp rating is bottom of the luxury group but at least in the ballpark of the 750i/S550/LS460. However, the 328 lb-ft of torque trails them all and by a huge margin. They would have been better off going with a larger engine for higher output and maintaining the current gas mileage with the use of the 8-speed transmission.
I will reserve judgment on the exterior until I see it in person. The cars unveiled yesterday did not look very interesting on the exterior but that may be due to unfortunate choices in color and rim designs (who uses chrome rims anymore?). The interior is great but I was expecting the pop-up MMI screen to be gone and replaced by something similar to the rest of the Audi line-up. It just doesn't look quite right in the deployed position. The rest of the interior is top notch and surpasses the S-Class and 7-Series in both design and execution.
The rear end of the D3 seems nicer than the D4 whose taillights are too similar to the A5/S5's. All in all, a safe redesign but not the revolutionary redesign they advertised during speeches before they unveiled the car.
I will reserve judgment on the exterior until I see it in person. The cars unveiled yesterday did not look very interesting on the exterior but that may be due to unfortunate choices in color and rim designs (who uses chrome rims anymore?). The interior is great but I was expecting the pop-up MMI screen to be gone and replaced by something similar to the rest of the Audi line-up. It just doesn't look quite right in the deployed position. The rest of the interior is top notch and surpasses the S-Class and 7-Series in both design and execution.
The rear end of the D3 seems nicer than the D4 whose taillights are too similar to the A5/S5's. All in all, a safe redesign but not the revolutionary redesign they advertised during speeches before they unveiled the car.
12-02-2009, 10:37 PM
#14
Perhaps you did not do the following all that closely, jersh: read my reply message to you that I posted over the summer regarding Consumer Reports solid recommendation for the 2006+ A8/A8L/S8-including 2009 (as well as the following mid 2000s Audis: 2005+ A6/S6, 2005.5+ A4/S4, 2007 and 2008 RS 4 and 2007+ TT, A5/S5 and Q5-the Q7 is no good and the A3 used to be good) due to average or better than average dependability, durability, quality, reliability, satisfaction and service, all aspects of performance (other than acceleration) that is better than every luxury car that is NOT A BMW and class leading safety.
I do not care what consumer reports said about the (and I quote) "2005.5+ A4/S4, 2007 and 2008 RS 4 and 2007+ TT".
I do not care about your market research on BMWs, or whatever you are yammering about above.
Come back to me when you have written a check for > $90k and gotten a pile of junk.
As I told you before, jersh, your (apparently) dreadful experience with your 2009 A8 4.2 or A8L 4.2 is typical of Audi for the following model years: 1987 to 1989 and 1998 to 2004 (1997 to 2005 for the A8/A8L and 1996 to 2005 for the A4/S4). So stop judging all mid 2000s and later Audis entirely on your 2009 A8 4.2 or A8L 4.2 (which, BTW, is clearly a lemon, which happens once in a while, in case you did NOT know that) because it is so childishly and foolishly judgmental.
And, BTW, your claims about what the D4 A8/A8L/S8 will be like (regardless of the economy, global or otherwise) may be true to a certain extent for the first model year or two (though probably not since Audi's in their first and second model years are now quite good simply because CR and True Delta-the Automotive gods say so, regardless of what anybody else says) than 100% false after that.
But now, the math doesn't lie. Near parity euro/dollar at the introduction of the D3 a8, now minus 50% and counting with the introduction of the D4 A8:
http://www.ecb.int/stats/exchange/eu...ph-usd.en.html
So no argument, folks - if the base car costs less than $80k and modest options can be had for less than $90k, then the d4 is junk. Not opinion. Fact. And btw, that goes for the merc and the bmw as well - if you can get (insert flagship here) for less than a 25% premium in nominal dollars over the previous generation, you should be very, very wary...
12-03-2009, 10:21 AM
#15
AudiWorld Super User
Come on now, check your facts...
"...if the base car costs less than $80k and modest options can be had for less than $90k, then the d4 is junk. Not opinion. Fact. And btw, that goes for the merc and the bmw as well - if you can get (insert flagship here) for less than a 25% premium in nominal dollars over the previous generation, you should be very, very wary..."[/QUOTE]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Facts re: Recent Audi A8 Platform Price Increase---
Audi D2 A8 NWB U.S. Intro = 1997 3.7FWD MSRP @ $56,900
Audi D2 A8 NWB U.S. Intro = 1997 4.2Q MSRP @ $64,500
Audi D3 A8 LWB U.S. Intro = 2004 4.2Q MSRP @ $68,500
Cost differential between D2/D3 4.2 Q Platform Intros = +6.2%
The U.S. differential from D2 3.7 FWD (NWB) to D3 4.2Q (LWB) was +20%...but that was for an upgrade, not only in NWB to LWB, but also in engine/drivetrain.
And the difference between the final LWB D2 MY and the D3 intro year was even smaller--
2003 MY (D2) A8 LWB MSRP = $67,200
2004 MY (D3) A8 LWB MSRP = $68,500 (+2%)
Where're you coming up with 25% intro premium?
Obviously there will be a base price increase, but nothing like a 25% hike--however, option packages may be more pricey...those killer LED headlights won't come cheap!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Facts re: Recent Audi A8 Platform Price Increase---
Audi D2 A8 NWB U.S. Intro = 1997 3.7FWD MSRP @ $56,900
Audi D2 A8 NWB U.S. Intro = 1997 4.2Q MSRP @ $64,500
Audi D3 A8 LWB U.S. Intro = 2004 4.2Q MSRP @ $68,500
Cost differential between D2/D3 4.2 Q Platform Intros = +6.2%
The U.S. differential from D2 3.7 FWD (NWB) to D3 4.2Q (LWB) was +20%...but that was for an upgrade, not only in NWB to LWB, but also in engine/drivetrain.
And the difference between the final LWB D2 MY and the D3 intro year was even smaller--
2003 MY (D2) A8 LWB MSRP = $67,200
2004 MY (D3) A8 LWB MSRP = $68,500 (+2%)
Where're you coming up with 25% intro premium?
Obviously there will be a base price increase, but nothing like a 25% hike--however, option packages may be more pricey...those killer LED headlights won't come cheap!!!
Last edited by derfA8L; 12-03-2009 at 12:40 PM.
12-04-2009, 07:44 AM
#16
Audi D2 A8 NWB U.S. Intro = 1997 3.7FWD MSRP @ $56,900
Audi D2 A8 NWB U.S. Intro = 1997 4.2Q MSRP @ $64,500
Audi D3 A8 LWB U.S. Intro = 2004 4.2Q MSRP @ $68,500
Cost differential between D2/D3 4.2 Q Platform Intros = +6.2%
The U.S. differential from D2 3.7 FWD (NWB) to D3 4.2Q (LWB) was +20%...but that was for an upgrade, not only in NWB to LWB, but also in engine/drivetrain.
And the difference between the final LWB D2 MY and the D3 intro year was even smaller--
2003 MY (D2) A8 LWB MSRP = $67,200
2004 MY (D3) A8 LWB MSRP = $68,500 (+2%)
Where're you coming up with 25% intro premium?
Obviously there will be a base price increase, but nothing like a 25% hike--however, option packages may be more pricey...those killer LED headlights won't come cheap!!!
Audi D2 A8 NWB U.S. Intro = 1997 4.2Q MSRP @ $64,500
Audi D3 A8 LWB U.S. Intro = 2004 4.2Q MSRP @ $68,500
Cost differential between D2/D3 4.2 Q Platform Intros = +6.2%
The U.S. differential from D2 3.7 FWD (NWB) to D3 4.2Q (LWB) was +20%...but that was for an upgrade, not only in NWB to LWB, but also in engine/drivetrain.
And the difference between the final LWB D2 MY and the D3 intro year was even smaller--
2003 MY (D2) A8 LWB MSRP = $67,200
2004 MY (D3) A8 LWB MSRP = $68,500 (+2%)
Where're you coming up with 25% intro premium?
Obviously there will be a base price increase, but nothing like a 25% hike--however, option packages may be more pricey...those killer LED headlights won't come cheap!!!
What I am saying is this: when audi began selling the D3, euro/dollar was essentially at parity. Now, years later, the euro is up 50% (or more) vs. the dollar.
But at the same time, the D4 is probably going to come in +10% or maybe, just maybe +15% over the ORIGINAL D4 price.
Now, there are three ways to explain this (and again, this goes for all the euro brands, not just audi):
1. Audi discovered a rich, as yet untapped vein of aluminum right in the back yard of one of its factories, lowering one of its basic material costs to simply the cost of extraction. They simultaneously genetically engineered high quality, vat-grown leather that costs a fraction to produce as the old stuff, from cows. The combination of these technological breakthroughs, across multiple materials and disciplines, allow them to sell the D4 at (essentially) a 30-40% discount in REAL (not nominal) dollars vs. the D3.
2. Audi is now a non-profit, cooperative concern, and profit margin no longer matters. Thus the 30-40% hit in REAL dollars is not a concern.
3. Audi will subtly alter processes, controls and materials, shaving cost and quality in as many ways as possible to allow for a palatable price in nominal dollars while still retaining some profit margin. It will be difficult for the end user to point out exactly what has changed (or not changed, in the case of the engine) and what has lower quality, but it will be VERY EASY to just do the math and say "if the price is only up 10 or 15% vs the D3 intro, then the car has been devalued, or dropped in quality by 30-40%".
So which do you think it is ?
As for my "25%" figure above, it's just a rough ballpark number as to what I believe the threshold of "suspicious" should be. If the base price is up 25% or more over the intro D3 price, it will _at least be plausible_ that quality has been retained. It's still worth being critical at that point, but at +25% for a D4 (or equivalent 7series/s-class) at least it's not laughable ...
However, I think it will be much less than 25%, in which case you can take your pick of the three explanations above
12-06-2009, 10:50 AM
#17
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What I am saying is this: when audi began selling the D3, euro/dollar was essentially at parity. Now, years later, the euro is up 50% (or more) vs. the dollar.
But at the same time, the D4 is probably going to come in +10% or maybe, just maybe +15% over the ORIGINAL D4 price.
Now, there are three ways to explain this (and again, this goes for all the euro brands, not just audi):
1. Audi discovered a rich, as yet untapped vein of aluminum right in the back yard of one of its factories, lowering one of its basic material costs to simply the cost of extraction. They simultaneously genetically engineered high quality, vat-grown leather that costs a fraction to produce as the old stuff, from cows. The combination of these technological breakthroughs, across multiple materials and disciplines, allow them to sell the D4 at (essentially) a 30-40% discount in REAL (not nominal) dollars vs. the D3.
2. Audi is now a non-profit, cooperative concern, and profit margin no longer matters. Thus the 30-40% hit in REAL dollars is not a concern.
3. Audi will subtly alter processes, controls and materials, shaving cost and quality in as many ways as possible to allow for a palatable price in nominal dollars while still retaining some profit margin. It will be difficult for the end user to point out exactly what has changed (or not changed, in the case of the engine) and what has lower quality, but it will be VERY EASY to just do the math and say "if the price is only up 10 or 15% vs the D3 intro, then the car has been devalued, or dropped in quality by 30-40%".
So which do you think it is ?
As for my "25%" figure above, it's just a rough ballpark number as to what I believe the threshold of "suspicious" should be. If the base price is up 25% or more over the intro D3 price, it will _at least be plausible_ that quality has been retained. It's still worth being critical at that point, but at +25% for a D4 (or equivalent 7series/s-class) at least it's not laughable ...
However, I think it will be much less than 25%, in which case you can take your pick of the three explanations above
But at the same time, the D4 is probably going to come in +10% or maybe, just maybe +15% over the ORIGINAL D4 price.
Now, there are three ways to explain this (and again, this goes for all the euro brands, not just audi):
1. Audi discovered a rich, as yet untapped vein of aluminum right in the back yard of one of its factories, lowering one of its basic material costs to simply the cost of extraction. They simultaneously genetically engineered high quality, vat-grown leather that costs a fraction to produce as the old stuff, from cows. The combination of these technological breakthroughs, across multiple materials and disciplines, allow them to sell the D4 at (essentially) a 30-40% discount in REAL (not nominal) dollars vs. the D3.
2. Audi is now a non-profit, cooperative concern, and profit margin no longer matters. Thus the 30-40% hit in REAL dollars is not a concern.
3. Audi will subtly alter processes, controls and materials, shaving cost and quality in as many ways as possible to allow for a palatable price in nominal dollars while still retaining some profit margin. It will be difficult for the end user to point out exactly what has changed (or not changed, in the case of the engine) and what has lower quality, but it will be VERY EASY to just do the math and say "if the price is only up 10 or 15% vs the D3 intro, then the car has been devalued, or dropped in quality by 30-40%".
So which do you think it is ?
As for my "25%" figure above, it's just a rough ballpark number as to what I believe the threshold of "suspicious" should be. If the base price is up 25% or more over the intro D3 price, it will _at least be plausible_ that quality has been retained. It's still worth being critical at that point, but at +25% for a D4 (or equivalent 7series/s-class) at least it's not laughable ...
However, I think it will be much less than 25%, in which case you can take your pick of the three explanations above
12-14-2009, 07:44 AM
#18
You are disputing the currency exchange rates ?
There's no new information in my post - you can go to any quotes site you like and see the euro/dollar conversion rate for any of these time periods.
So, no, I don't mind if you quote me.
There's no new information in my post - you can go to any quotes site you like and see the euro/dollar conversion rate for any of these time periods.
So, no, I don't mind if you quote me.
12-20-2009, 01:58 PM
#19
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25% over the original D3 price is acceptable. It's been 6 years. As far as currency exchange rates go, I believe Audi, just like the rest of the European manufacturers, hedge their dollar bets.
12-26-2009, 05:39 AM
#20
AudiWorld Super User
<<<<As far as currency exchange rates go, I believe Audi, just like the rest of the European manufacturers, hedge their dollar bets.>>>>
Yes, they most certainly do.
Yes, they most certainly do.