angrypengu

I've been looking into whether or not Audi's new A8 flagship will end up being like Mercedes' major S class debacle back in the 2000 days.

It seems the new A6 is headed in that direction: https://global.handelsblatt.com/comp...ve-audi-805253

To quote:

" For example, the budget for revamping the Audi A6 will be slashed from €1 billion to between €500 and €600 million. Engineers working on the Q4 and Q6 SUVs will now have to make do with €280 million instead of €500 million. "

So what is interesting about this article is that it is dated in mid 2017. I believe the A8 development should have finished by then which caused me to breathe a sigh of relief, and then I remembered...wait, the A6 was/is being developed along the A8's timeframe too.

I did not read anywhere (probably Audi made sure of this) of any comments of A8's cost cutting.

Here is another interesting article:

https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/...n-testing-9576

" During shakedown testing, approximately 600 pre-production vehicles are driven over 50,000 to 100,000 kilometers (31,068.6 – 62,137.1 mi) under real-world conditions. Some of the cars are driven as many as 200,000 (124,274.2 mi) kilometers over a two to three-year period. "

Does that mean 600 pre production vehicles are driven over 50,000 to 100K km each, or total? (if the latter, that's shocking sad as I believe the latest E class had 30 million kilometers of testing by MB).

Thoughts?

MP4.2+6.0

On cost cutting, in part the trouble is the D5 is really not yet "finished," and importantly the flagship Audi is losing in the US market (and even some in Europe) for overlapping reasons. First, there is still no V8 option in Europe where the A8 has been out for a year, let alone just here prospectively. No V8, in a car originally labeled an "8" when cylinder count originally aligned with the bodies? The apparent reason is they moved V8 responsibility to Porsche--and oddly moved the production and tooling from lower cost Hungary back to higher cost Germany. The recent/current 4.0T V8 with its hot V design really is principally Audi, as opposed to Porsche. And relative to the competition, BMW and Merc both initially missed the move to hot V's when Audi did it and suddenly jumped way ahead on the higher end performance offerings. Traditionally Audi was sort of the laggard of the three in the HP races. Their competitors are not standing still, let alone somehow major tied up in their corporate underwear on a historically key part of their large platform offerings.

Further, the D5 was supposed to be the big leap on autonomous. Refining and advancing that was the stated reasoner stretching the timeline to D5 intro, even before all the TSI related belt tightening came home to roost. FWIW, the D5 was supposed to precede the C body redo, but with both the first big slip attributed to more automouns work and then the second slip with TDI they ended up on top of each other. C intro was also stretched alongside with TDI impacts. Now they say they need the laws standardized before any US more advanced autonomous intro. Hmmm, they are getting eaten alive in the US market by Tesla already, and with an S that is like a half dozen year old + platform now. I'm not a Tesla fanboy, but if you come to or are in CA, Tesla has really blown out the traditional German high end players with their first play with the S. What used to be common fancy German rides are now much rarer, and its a lot more A3's, A4's, Q3's, Q5's. Same thing with now rarely sighted 7 series, XJ's, LS Lexi and the various Merc S flavors. Merc maybe holding on a bit more. Audi's biggest markets for the big ones traditionally were Southern and Northern CA, eclipsed only/maybe oddly by FL with its retiree stereotype. But Audi confuses electric with autonomous when they think Tesla. Tesla and more than a few others (Volvo another example perhaps) plow ahead there. Right or wrong, many buyers fall for both the cachet of the now hip brand as well as the allure of time saving and multiplexing they see in "AutoPilot." Meantime, D5 remains stuck there. And even as to what it did announce, frankly self driving in limited speed ranges AND requiring a physical divider is not exactly cutting edge, legal standardization excuses or not.

To a few of your other points/questions, I think it is hundreds of cars each driven those average miles. But I don't have direct info. A lot of that kind of information can also get a bit confused in translation. Audi supposedly adopted English as its corporate language several years ago now, but in practice the material seems to often first be drafted in German. You see it in some of their model press releases when something just does not hang together until you realize it is being slavishly translated without the translator knowing the actual subject matter. In any case, they are known for a lot more testing than they used to be, and do a lot more extreme condition testing from desert to Arctic Circle. I've seen a few stories about it over the years. As another random example, in recent months I saw a Gen 2 Q5 on a local Bay Area freeway with etron/electric badging. But no such vehicle is currently sold (or yet announced) in the USA or elsewhere. It was not some enthusiast badge type glue on where I know the typical poser stuff, plus I own a Gen 1 Q5 hybrid so am familiar and sensitized to the look, the model and the market segment. Net, it looked like on road pre intro testing 5,000 miles from home base where by and large it just looked like another recently purchased Q5 to most. I have also come across one of the Delphi autonomous test bed Q5's that have been around for a while and publicized. The latter at least may connect to their "low profile" Silicon Valley autonomous software development center. Only trouble is many here who are auto industry savvy pretty much know down to the building let alone the street exactly where it is...and Merc's is just down the same street.

angrypengu

I definitely appreciate your insight here and agree on your points made! I just have a question if I may ask, and it's directed more towards your last paragraph. I have been doing my due diligence in trying to figure out if Audi's cost cutting has ate into its testing budget. To me, it always made sense that when a carmaker wants to cut costs, that cutting testing costs is going to represent a huge chunk of money. Imagine that - 600 cars flown all over the world (to the 17 test centers and then to urban centers), let alone the people, infrastructure, and all of those expenses - that must be a huge amount of money. I get that MB/BMW/Audi have all stated that they are cutting costs in order to improve on electric car technology, but the reality is that the S, 7, as an example, were all developed and mature prior to those announcements. The A8 though, to your point, has not been finished, and the cost cutting time would have started near the time the A8's testing regime would have been near its heyday.

Taking the A8 aside, I've been trying to literally see if Audi has actually increased or decreased their real world testing. I'm not insinuating that the more testing may equal better reliability (Mercedes tested the W204 prior to launch with 10 million + test kilometers, and they didn't catch widespread balancer shaft failures), but on a balance of probabilities, I'd like a carmaker to test more, rather than less. I know you cited your own sightings and please know I'm not trying to take away from that - I'm just hoping to see if you know of anything more official that has been announced. Audi doesn't make this info easy to get, and while I can go and dig up a bunch of technical documentation, with respect to KM testing, engine testing and such, I don't see much out there.

Thanks!

angrypengu

Curious. Is Tesla's autopilot actually Level 3?

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...duction.98632/

Based on the above, I don't think so?