Torn between S5 and RS5 (and Golf R)
02-19-2018, 10:44 AM
#11
AudiWorld Junior Member
Thread Starter
Superswiss, how is the dynamic of the V8 in the RS5? I have had a N/A engine before, albeit a 1.4 Civic, but I know they need more RPM to truly shine. I'm just asking, because I don't want to buy a car that needs to be driven above 5000 RPM to be enjoyable.
02-19-2018, 11:30 AM
#12
AudiWorld Super User
The high-revving engine concept is not very well understood by many. They complain about the relatively low engine torque of the V8, completely overlooking gearing. Torque can be easily manipulated by gearing, so even if the engine torque is low it gets multiplied through the aggressive gearing to produce proper wheel torque. The car with more power is always faster than the car with more torque, but to make the power you have to rev the RS5. An S5 is faster off the line till about 30 mph at which point the RS5 starts pulling away due to the additional power it makes once it's in the powerband. The RS5 is definitely a car that's fun at speed whereas the S5 is perhaps more fun a low speeds and around town where you don't have the room to rev the RS5, however, I tend to drive very sedated around town with people and other cars around and I let the beast out on deserted canyon roads, but even on the highway the RS5 is lots of fun and easy to zip around all the dreamers we have on the road here. .
02-19-2018, 05:06 PM
#13
So I concur with everything SuperSwiss said. In addition...
I was in a similar situation where I was deciding between an S3 and an RS5. I'm a recovering modaholic. Keep that in mind. I test drove no less than five different RS5's as well as the same number of S3's. I test drove used, new, abused and everything in between. I wanted a good sample. I was honestly after an RS3 but there were no test drives available (plus it's a first year engine) and I was having a hard time swallowing the cost of one spec'd as I'd want.
The most telling test drive came early on in my search. One dealer, two different cars. An 2015 S3 and a "put away wet" RS5. I had no intention of buying either. From a purely speed standpoint, they were perfectly inverted. The S3 had great pull down low and died on the top end. Really disappointing actually. The RS5 was just the opposite and had an incredible top-end rush and a sweet as can be gearbox. And both are about as quick in a straight line.
The RS5 felt like an $80K USD car. The S3 didn't. Ergonomically, I actually liked the simplicity and overall design of the S3's interior but 20/20 hindsight, when I look at them now, they're not nearly as special as the RS5 (or S5's) interior.
After all was said and done on that first test drive of both cars, I truly thought "yeah, the S3 could be enough." But I could not, for the life of me, forget the RS5's engine and transmission. It literally haunted me.
Now I really like the S3's light weight and overall driving dynamics. I used to own an Evo, lightly modded, and the S3 had a very similar overall feel albeit without the steering feedback. Really brought back a lot of fond memories. The RS5 just hammers corners though. And don't even get me started on power-on apex clipping. It's. Just. So. Good. And you can get the tail out for a few milliseconds. Real world, A to B, there's not much that'll keep up with the RS5.
In the end, I (obviously) chose the RS5. And I could not be happier. It didn't help there are "issues" with the S3's engine and I knew, as a modaholic, that could be a potential long-term problem.
I have to say the ceramic brakes are killer. I have them on my RS5 and I've slowly gotten over the sheer terror of ever damaging them. If you can find an example with one, go for it. I bought mine with mods, full history, about 5K less miles than what you're looking at. The RS5 engine seems to be pretty darn reliable. As does the 2013+ S-Tronic. Yes, things can get expensive quickly but with a bit of searching, elbow grease and ingenuity, one can secure parts and fixes for broken bits at a fairly affordable cost. It isn't a Toyota Camry but it's also not a Porsche or Ferrari. Or BMW M for that matter.
And on the power front, things are changing. They've come down enough in price that true enthusiasts are purchasing them. It's creating more of a market for modifications.
With that said, the S5, assuming it has the same rear sport diff and software, can be made to handle as well if not better than the RS5 (less weight over front axle). And from a power standpoint, a few thousand dollars (or pounds) will make it infinitely faster. For now. But, and it's a big but, there isn't as much soul. And the sound. No comparison. I giggle like a school girl every time I have an opportunity to hit redline in a few gears. Between the engine revving to redline in a millisecond and the perfectly-matched S-Tronic, it's just a great package.
You asked about dynamic and I tend to drive in dynamic but in manual mode. If you drive in dynamic, in automated S-mode, it's really too aggressive for making your way around town. When you have the opportunity to exploit the car, it's brilliant in S. But you can drive in dynamic, in D mode, and your right foot will dictate the shift points fairly telepathically. You can plod along with the car shifting at 2K rpm or give it a bit more gas and snap. Really up to you and it's a very Jeckyll and Hyde sort of car.
Other things I like...I have the Alcantara interior and I'm very much in love with it. I wasn't hot on it, sight unseen, as it doesn't photograph easily, but in person and day to day, it's the way to go for me personally. Really like it. 20/20 hindsight, I might consider cars without adaptive cruise or dynamic steering. It isn't all that and from what I've read, the standard steering is a little more predictable.
The paint is nice and hard. It deals with being daily-driven amazingly well. No opinion on the S3's paint. And I do daily drive the RS5. We've had off and on again rain for over a week with no end in sight. Car is amazingly dirty on the exterior currently.
Things I don't like. A bit too many squeaks and rattles over slow, rough surfaces. The car is stout but the sunroof tends to creak a lot. I've improved it with a bit of proper lubrication. Also, as I'm sure you know, it's a heavy car. This is my second heavy coupe in a row. The S3's size is actually a very strong point for me and it's a joy to drive in that regard. It'll rotate reasonably well and is "tossable" where the RS5 isn't necessarily. But the RS5 has so much mechanical grip and there isn't a lot of undue body motion meaning it feels lighter than it actually is. Delicate it isn't. But it is precise which what makes it so great. There really aren't enough opportunities to express yourself in this car. The limits are so high that it requires a lot of push to feel alive. Your license may not survive.
One advantage of the Golf R might be device connectivity. I believe the R has an advantage. The Bang&Olson stereo in the RS5 is nice, really nice, but not earth shattering. I generally have no complaints. There are add-on devices now for Carplay/Android Auto in the S5/RS5 from RS Nav. Just google it. So it's easy to update the connectivity.
The Golf R probably has more overall utility and storage but I have to say, the RS5's trunk is enormous. I'm a big guy and if something rolls to the back of the trunk, I "almost" can't reach it. Love it. Feel like I could fit five golf bags back there. But I despise golf. Sorry.
I think if you got the Golf R, it'd always be a "what if". Everyone should own a high-winding exotic V-8 engine at least once in their life. Now the R can be heavily modded too, for far less money, including a fully-built engine. Just really depends on where your pleasure priorities lie. If you have the means to properly care for the RS5, and a good dealer close, I'd go for the RS.
If you're not happily married and looking to "pull" something (male, female, I don't judge), the RS5. Hands down.
Edit: I almost forgot...the S5 does have a more mechanically complex engine with more things to break. The RS5 engine has lineage with the R8/Gallardo V-10 but Audi has been refining the 4.2L in various forms for decades.
Did I mention the RS5 looks evil?
I was in a similar situation where I was deciding between an S3 and an RS5. I'm a recovering modaholic. Keep that in mind. I test drove no less than five different RS5's as well as the same number of S3's. I test drove used, new, abused and everything in between. I wanted a good sample. I was honestly after an RS3 but there were no test drives available (plus it's a first year engine) and I was having a hard time swallowing the cost of one spec'd as I'd want.
The most telling test drive came early on in my search. One dealer, two different cars. An 2015 S3 and a "put away wet" RS5. I had no intention of buying either. From a purely speed standpoint, they were perfectly inverted. The S3 had great pull down low and died on the top end. Really disappointing actually. The RS5 was just the opposite and had an incredible top-end rush and a sweet as can be gearbox. And both are about as quick in a straight line.
The RS5 felt like an $80K USD car. The S3 didn't. Ergonomically, I actually liked the simplicity and overall design of the S3's interior but 20/20 hindsight, when I look at them now, they're not nearly as special as the RS5 (or S5's) interior.
After all was said and done on that first test drive of both cars, I truly thought "yeah, the S3 could be enough." But I could not, for the life of me, forget the RS5's engine and transmission. It literally haunted me.
Now I really like the S3's light weight and overall driving dynamics. I used to own an Evo, lightly modded, and the S3 had a very similar overall feel albeit without the steering feedback. Really brought back a lot of fond memories. The RS5 just hammers corners though. And don't even get me started on power-on apex clipping. It's. Just. So. Good. And you can get the tail out for a few milliseconds. Real world, A to B, there's not much that'll keep up with the RS5.
In the end, I (obviously) chose the RS5. And I could not be happier. It didn't help there are "issues" with the S3's engine and I knew, as a modaholic, that could be a potential long-term problem.
I have to say the ceramic brakes are killer. I have them on my RS5 and I've slowly gotten over the sheer terror of ever damaging them. If you can find an example with one, go for it. I bought mine with mods, full history, about 5K less miles than what you're looking at. The RS5 engine seems to be pretty darn reliable. As does the 2013+ S-Tronic. Yes, things can get expensive quickly but with a bit of searching, elbow grease and ingenuity, one can secure parts and fixes for broken bits at a fairly affordable cost. It isn't a Toyota Camry but it's also not a Porsche or Ferrari. Or BMW M for that matter.
And on the power front, things are changing. They've come down enough in price that true enthusiasts are purchasing them. It's creating more of a market for modifications.
With that said, the S5, assuming it has the same rear sport diff and software, can be made to handle as well if not better than the RS5 (less weight over front axle). And from a power standpoint, a few thousand dollars (or pounds) will make it infinitely faster. For now. But, and it's a big but, there isn't as much soul. And the sound. No comparison. I giggle like a school girl every time I have an opportunity to hit redline in a few gears. Between the engine revving to redline in a millisecond and the perfectly-matched S-Tronic, it's just a great package.
You asked about dynamic and I tend to drive in dynamic but in manual mode. If you drive in dynamic, in automated S-mode, it's really too aggressive for making your way around town. When you have the opportunity to exploit the car, it's brilliant in S. But you can drive in dynamic, in D mode, and your right foot will dictate the shift points fairly telepathically. You can plod along with the car shifting at 2K rpm or give it a bit more gas and snap. Really up to you and it's a very Jeckyll and Hyde sort of car.
Other things I like...I have the Alcantara interior and I'm very much in love with it. I wasn't hot on it, sight unseen, as it doesn't photograph easily, but in person and day to day, it's the way to go for me personally. Really like it. 20/20 hindsight, I might consider cars without adaptive cruise or dynamic steering. It isn't all that and from what I've read, the standard steering is a little more predictable.
The paint is nice and hard. It deals with being daily-driven amazingly well. No opinion on the S3's paint. And I do daily drive the RS5. We've had off and on again rain for over a week with no end in sight. Car is amazingly dirty on the exterior currently.
Things I don't like. A bit too many squeaks and rattles over slow, rough surfaces. The car is stout but the sunroof tends to creak a lot. I've improved it with a bit of proper lubrication. Also, as I'm sure you know, it's a heavy car. This is my second heavy coupe in a row. The S3's size is actually a very strong point for me and it's a joy to drive in that regard. It'll rotate reasonably well and is "tossable" where the RS5 isn't necessarily. But the RS5 has so much mechanical grip and there isn't a lot of undue body motion meaning it feels lighter than it actually is. Delicate it isn't. But it is precise which what makes it so great. There really aren't enough opportunities to express yourself in this car. The limits are so high that it requires a lot of push to feel alive. Your license may not survive.
One advantage of the Golf R might be device connectivity. I believe the R has an advantage. The Bang&Olson stereo in the RS5 is nice, really nice, but not earth shattering. I generally have no complaints. There are add-on devices now for Carplay/Android Auto in the S5/RS5 from RS Nav. Just google it. So it's easy to update the connectivity.
The Golf R probably has more overall utility and storage but I have to say, the RS5's trunk is enormous. I'm a big guy and if something rolls to the back of the trunk, I "almost" can't reach it. Love it. Feel like I could fit five golf bags back there. But I despise golf. Sorry.
I think if you got the Golf R, it'd always be a "what if". Everyone should own a high-winding exotic V-8 engine at least once in their life. Now the R can be heavily modded too, for far less money, including a fully-built engine. Just really depends on where your pleasure priorities lie. If you have the means to properly care for the RS5, and a good dealer close, I'd go for the RS.
If you're not happily married and looking to "pull" something (male, female, I don't judge), the RS5. Hands down.
Edit: I almost forgot...the S5 does have a more mechanically complex engine with more things to break. The RS5 engine has lineage with the R8/Gallardo V-10 but Audi has been refining the 4.2L in various forms for decades.
Did I mention the RS5 looks evil?
Last edited by Ape Factory; 02-19-2018 at 05:15 PM.
02-19-2018, 05:28 PM
#14
AudiWorld Super User
^^ great points. Only one thing I really disagree with and that's your comment on the dynamic steering. The standard steering is actually quite numb compared to the dynamic steering and it's not really more predictable. In 'dynamic' mode the dynamic steering locks the ratio and is as predictable, however, it has more feedback and is quicker because it locks at a more direct ratio than the standard steering. The standard steering has a fixed ratio of 15.9:1, whereas the dynamic steering locks at 14.3:1 in 'dynamic' mode. That makes it quicker and more lively. In 'comfort' and 'auto' mode I find that it adjusts the ratio very naturally and transparent. I find 'auto' mode nearly perfect for daily driving with the sport diff in 'dynamic' mode. That's how I roll most of the time. 'Individual' mode with everything in 'auto', except for the SD in 'dynamic' and then depending on my mood I put the transmission in S and then M. I assume yours had the steering software update, if not that's what you wanna get. I also have the AluKreuz, which made a major difference. The steering was a bit wacky to be honest when I first got the car until the software was updated and I got the AK. Now having driven many other Audis with the standard steering including the R8 I would never go back to the standard steering and I love my adaptive cruise for driving in traffic and on road trips. It's something I would miss.
Last edited by superswiss; 02-19-2018 at 05:30 PM.
02-19-2018, 05:40 PM
#15
Fair enough! I've read a few reviews where there was issues with consistency in corners, blamed on the dynamic steering. They said it suddenly took more effort to get into a corner vs. previous laps.
My personal issue with it is the way it wants to go back to center as you've already loaded the chassis into a corner. It doesn't want to stay at the given wheel's angle and pushes against your efforts to keep the wheel turned. Even with camber in corners. I drove around in a manual rack car for a good bit and it required less effort mid-corner, LOL. BUT I've not driven the standard rack. I just assumed it was similar to the dynamic in comfort. But I do agree the transition between the two, when in auto, is pretty darn good. I'd just prefer one ratio.
I have not looked into the the steering software update. I'll do that in March at my next service though. I don't have the AluKreuz either and have been considering it as well. I do have the CR-15. Someone mentioned in a thread that the RS5 had a beefed-up lower brace and the Alu didn't have as much of an effect. If that's erroneous, I'm all in!
My personal issue with it is the way it wants to go back to center as you've already loaded the chassis into a corner. It doesn't want to stay at the given wheel's angle and pushes against your efforts to keep the wheel turned. Even with camber in corners. I drove around in a manual rack car for a good bit and it required less effort mid-corner, LOL. BUT I've not driven the standard rack. I just assumed it was similar to the dynamic in comfort. But I do agree the transition between the two, when in auto, is pretty darn good. I'd just prefer one ratio.
I have not looked into the the steering software update. I'll do that in March at my next service though. I don't have the AluKreuz either and have been considering it as well. I do have the CR-15. Someone mentioned in a thread that the RS5 had a beefed-up lower brace and the Alu didn't have as much of an effect. If that's erroneous, I'm all in!
02-19-2018, 08:39 PM
#16
AudiWorld Super User
If I'm not mistaken, you have a modded suspension so be careful with blaming things on the steering when it could be caused by mods. The AK definitely makes a difference even in the RS5. The RS5 has the brace from the S5 cab. Still a pretty flimsy welded together piece if you see it. I don't have the CR-15, so I don't know how it affects the steering.
02-19-2018, 11:01 PM
#17
AudiWorld Junior Member
Thread Starter
Thank you guys. You've been incredibly helpful. It will still be a few months before I pull the trigger on the car (still saving up), however, I think I'll go for the RS5, if there isn't anything I wouldn't like when driving the car.
As I've said, I've only had a 1.4 N/A 66 kW Civic, but even for a small engine like this, it sure loved to be revved and the power band was impressive as well. Nowadays, I drive a 1.2 Golf TSI and since it's a turbo engine, the dynamics are totally awful.. you press the gas pedal, nothing happens, then all of a sudden, you get a burst of power up to 3 - 3.5k RPM and then nothing. I know I shouldn't compare this engine to other, more powerful turbo charged engines, but still, it's a turbo engine and with that comes the lags and everything..
That's funny, Evo IX was my dream when I was like 16 years old .. I always wanted to save my money for it.. but when I finally got enough money, it turned out, the Evo interior got really dated and it's not the newest vehicle on the lot, so..
I agree, that everyone should own a V8 at least once .. that's why I want the RS5. I love the sexy exterior, I love the interior, I love the sound of the V8, I love the exclusivity .. I think I haven't yet met a single RS5 where I live .. only thing I'm worried is the maintenance costs and that it will be really gas thirsty.. but I guess that is the price to pay..
As I've said, I'll probably be buying the car sometime in summer (around June or so), so I'll keep you posted.
PS: Beautiful photo
As I've said, I've only had a 1.4 N/A 66 kW Civic, but even for a small engine like this, it sure loved to be revved and the power band was impressive as well. Nowadays, I drive a 1.2 Golf TSI and since it's a turbo engine, the dynamics are totally awful.. you press the gas pedal, nothing happens, then all of a sudden, you get a burst of power up to 3 - 3.5k RPM and then nothing. I know I shouldn't compare this engine to other, more powerful turbo charged engines, but still, it's a turbo engine and with that comes the lags and everything..
That's funny, Evo IX was my dream when I was like 16 years old .. I always wanted to save my money for it.. but when I finally got enough money, it turned out, the Evo interior got really dated and it's not the newest vehicle on the lot, so..
I agree, that everyone should own a V8 at least once .. that's why I want the RS5. I love the sexy exterior, I love the interior, I love the sound of the V8, I love the exclusivity .. I think I haven't yet met a single RS5 where I live .. only thing I'm worried is the maintenance costs and that it will be really gas thirsty.. but I guess that is the price to pay..
As I've said, I'll probably be buying the car sometime in summer (around June or so), so I'll keep you posted.
PS: Beautiful photo
02-20-2018, 06:49 AM
#18
If I'm not mistaken, you have a modded suspension so be careful with blaming things on the steering when it could be caused by mods. The AK definitely makes a difference even in the RS5. The RS5 has the brace from the S5 cab. Still a pretty flimsy welded together piece if you see it. I don't have the CR-15, so I don't know how it affects the steering.
I could live without the CR-15 honestly. It had a very, vary small effect on how the car tracked over rough pavement but that's about it.
02-20-2018, 06:54 AM
#19
Thank you guys. You've been incredibly helpful. It will still be a few months before I pull the trigger on the car (still saving up), however, I think I'll go for the RS5, if there isn't anything I wouldn't like when driving the car.
As I've said, I've only had a 1.4 N/A 66 kW Civic, but even for a small engine like this, it sure loved to be revved and the power band was impressive as well. Nowadays, I drive a 1.2 Golf TSI and since it's a turbo engine, the dynamics are totally awful.. you press the gas pedal, nothing happens, then all of a sudden, you get a burst of power up to 3 - 3.5k RPM and then nothing. I know I shouldn't compare this engine to other, more powerful turbo charged engines, but still, it's a turbo engine and with that comes the lags and everything..
That's funny, Evo IX was my dream when I was like 16 years old .. I always wanted to save my money for it.. but when I finally got enough money, it turned out, the Evo interior got really dated and it's not the newest vehicle on the lot, so..
I agree, that everyone should own a V8 at least once .. that's why I want the RS5. I love the sexy exterior, I love the interior, I love the sound of the V8, I love the exclusivity .. I think I haven't yet met a single RS5 where I live .. only thing I'm worried is the maintenance costs and that it will be really gas thirsty.. but I guess that is the price to pay..
As I've said, I'll probably be buying the car sometime in summer (around June or so), so I'll keep you posted.
PS: Beautiful photo
As I've said, I've only had a 1.4 N/A 66 kW Civic, but even for a small engine like this, it sure loved to be revved and the power band was impressive as well. Nowadays, I drive a 1.2 Golf TSI and since it's a turbo engine, the dynamics are totally awful.. you press the gas pedal, nothing happens, then all of a sudden, you get a burst of power up to 3 - 3.5k RPM and then nothing. I know I shouldn't compare this engine to other, more powerful turbo charged engines, but still, it's a turbo engine and with that comes the lags and everything..
That's funny, Evo IX was my dream when I was like 16 years old .. I always wanted to save my money for it.. but when I finally got enough money, it turned out, the Evo interior got really dated and it's not the newest vehicle on the lot, so..
I agree, that everyone should own a V8 at least once .. that's why I want the RS5. I love the sexy exterior, I love the interior, I love the sound of the V8, I love the exclusivity .. I think I haven't yet met a single RS5 where I live .. only thing I'm worried is the maintenance costs and that it will be really gas thirsty.. but I guess that is the price to pay..
As I've said, I'll probably be buying the car sometime in summer (around June or so), so I'll keep you posted.
PS: Beautiful photo
Good luck with the car hunt!
