How many of you use a Faraday shield bag for your key fobs?
12-04-2018, 07:07 PM
#101
AudiWorld Super User
12-04-2018, 07:18 PM
#102
AudiWorld Senior Member
12-05-2018, 06:06 AM
#103
AudiWorld Super User
I just got mine replaced a couple of months ago (inexpensive financially, but still an aggravating experience) and am planning to get a new car once the 2019s are finally released, so I have no desire to see hail ever again.
12-05-2018, 06:31 AM
#104
AudiWorld Super User
The thieves use a pair of radio transceivers that create a long range link between the fob and car. One carries a box to a spot near a bedroom, or wherever they suspect the fob is, and the other remains near / in the car. Once the connection is made, the car thinks the fob is at the car, and they just open it up, and possibly drive it away.
12-05-2018, 06:38 AM
#105
AudiWorld Super User
"Range" on any radio depends on:
1)The power of the radio transmitter,
including battery condition
2)The sensitivity of the radio receiver,
and yes, you can easily build one 100x more sensitive than the cheap one used in production cars
3) Everything in between the transmitter and receiver. Whether that is plaster walls, wood frame and sheetrock, perhaps with tight wire mesh under a layer of stucco (good killer), whether it is raining heavily, whether there is a generally quiet radio environment (lone house) or lots of interference, i.e. neon signs on shop windows on the block.
So when you talk about range on these remotes, I've done nearly 100 yards line-of-sight with nothing blocking the signal. That's typical, but in a parking lot it may be 1/4 of that just because of all the metal cars blocking the signal path.
I think mark Tobin put up the first YT video on this in 2014, and the industry claimed it was all a lie until they formed a group to study the problem in 2016 or 2017. This latest news piece is just recapping what is now established OLD NEWS.
If you have a highway toll pass and it came with a mylar (silvery plastic) protector bag? That's a Faraday cage too. Lots of devices are shipped in them these days. Not fancy leather, but they're slim, free, and work.
1)The power of the radio transmitter,
including battery condition
2)The sensitivity of the radio receiver,
and yes, you can easily build one 100x more sensitive than the cheap one used in production cars
3) Everything in between the transmitter and receiver. Whether that is plaster walls, wood frame and sheetrock, perhaps with tight wire mesh under a layer of stucco (good killer), whether it is raining heavily, whether there is a generally quiet radio environment (lone house) or lots of interference, i.e. neon signs on shop windows on the block.
So when you talk about range on these remotes, I've done nearly 100 yards line-of-sight with nothing blocking the signal. That's typical, but in a parking lot it may be 1/4 of that just because of all the metal cars blocking the signal path.
I think mark Tobin put up the first YT video on this in 2014, and the industry claimed it was all a lie until they formed a group to study the problem in 2016 or 2017. This latest news piece is just recapping what is now established OLD NEWS.
If you have a highway toll pass and it came with a mylar (silvery plastic) protector bag? That's a Faraday cage too. Lots of devices are shipped in them these days. Not fancy leather, but they're slim, free, and work.
12-05-2018, 08:38 AM
#106
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
12-05-2018, 10:15 AM
#107
AudiWorld Super User
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FrO30gb8-g
Anyone who doesn't have a solid technical background in radios, should view the video that Marc Tobias posted in *2015* with one of the companies making these intercept devices. The folks he interviewed were making a high-end device for use by government and police personnel, but similar devices sell for $20 out of the usual offshore web sources these days. And have been for the past two years.
Whether the lock behavior can be changed in the AMI or MMI has been reported as either easy, or impossible, depending on the poster. So apparently that also varies with something that is not readily obvious, like the country code which has been programmed in the car. I've been told the option can be changed with VCDS in my AMI car, but Ross Tech knows of no such setting, so it becomes a matter of explore--and meanwhile, Audi of America also says this "cannot" be done. Which again, may mean someone is confused over software options, or, there's a link like country coding, which affects many things that are not documented.
Anyone who doesn't have a solid technical background in radios, should view the video that Marc Tobias posted in *2015* with one of the companies making these intercept devices. The folks he interviewed were making a high-end device for use by government and police personnel, but similar devices sell for $20 out of the usual offshore web sources these days. And have been for the past two years.
Whether the lock behavior can be changed in the AMI or MMI has been reported as either easy, or impossible, depending on the poster. So apparently that also varies with something that is not readily obvious, like the country code which has been programmed in the car. I've been told the option can be changed with VCDS in my AMI car, but Ross Tech knows of no such setting, so it becomes a matter of explore--and meanwhile, Audi of America also says this "cannot" be done. Which again, may mean someone is confused over software options, or, there's a link like country coding, which affects many things that are not documented.
12-05-2018, 10:52 AM
#108
AudiWorld Super User
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FrO30gb8-g
Anyone who doesn't have a solid technical background in radios, should view the video that Marc Tobias posted in *2015* with one of the companies making these intercept devices. The folks he interviewed were making a high-end device for use by government and police personnel, but similar devices sell for $20 out of the usual offshore web sources these days. And have been for the past two years.
Whether the lock behavior can be changed in the AMI or MMI has been reported as either easy, or impossible, depending on the poster. So apparently that also varies with something that is not readily obvious, like the country code which has been programmed in the car. I've been told the option can be changed with VCDS in my AMI car, but Ross Tech knows of no such setting, so it becomes a matter of explore--and meanwhile, Audi of America also says this "cannot" be done. Which again, may mean someone is confused over software options, or, there's a link like country coding, which affects many things that are not documented.
Anyone who doesn't have a solid technical background in radios, should view the video that Marc Tobias posted in *2015* with one of the companies making these intercept devices. The folks he interviewed were making a high-end device for use by government and police personnel, but similar devices sell for $20 out of the usual offshore web sources these days. And have been for the past two years.
Whether the lock behavior can be changed in the AMI or MMI has been reported as either easy, or impossible, depending on the poster. So apparently that also varies with something that is not readily obvious, like the country code which has been programmed in the car. I've been told the option can be changed with VCDS in my AMI car, but Ross Tech knows of no such setting, so it becomes a matter of explore--and meanwhile, Audi of America also says this "cannot" be done. Which again, may mean someone is confused over software options, or, there's a link like country coding, which affects many things that are not documented.
12-05-2018, 11:09 AM
#109
AudiWorld Super User
cannot boosted a signal that you don’t have. The power is transmitted from the fob, the receiver is a passive device. Unless the thieves is holding up a parabola antenna, the receiver will not detect anything beyond a very short range, that’s how your car knows when you get out of the car with the keys in your pocket.
12-05-2018, 11:22 AM
#110
AudiWorld Super User
"cannot boosted a signal that you don’t have."
Which is why a common five watt hand-held radio typically has a range of one mile, or maybe fifteen stories within a building. But the same radio can literally work the International Station, 200 miles overhead. And folks do that regularly, because that's a 200-mile clear line of sight. "Range" can get very technical.
Superswiss-
Bear in mind that Tobias is a well known and vocal security consultant, but the guys he was talking to supposedly deal with government agencies, in the security business. And that means they do not necessarily want to show and tell everything that they really are selling, much less encourage their competition. It is the concept, not the details, that really is the heart of the matter. Like when the original Ace brand (tubular cylinder) locks came out, those were widely sold as "pick proof" because there were no picking tools for them. IIRC it took the government agencies about a year to figure out a universal pick tool for them, but a decade more for that to get common.
I'm sure that there must be ingenious ways to use encryption (hardware chips, similar to TPM in computers) and clever software tricks to see if a transmitter is genuine and valid. But as with everything else, making ANY change with ANY extra cost, times how many million key fobs? They just aren't motivated. In fact, the OralB electric toothbrushes, now with Bluetooth links in the top models, actually use accelerometers and position sensors from the cell phone industry to figure out which quadrant of your mouth they are in, to make sure you're brushing evenly. And one of the "insurance dongle" companies looks at your cell phone's accelerometer to see if you've entered a car by twisting clockwise or counterclockwise, indicating that you are the driver or passenger. There are LOTS of ingenious things they can do, but very little motivation for anyone to be the first to market with it.
What was that James Bond movie, where his Lotus has a little "Burglar Protected" sticker on the side window? And it goes up in a ball of thunder when someone tries to burgle it?(VBG)
Which is why a common five watt hand-held radio typically has a range of one mile, or maybe fifteen stories within a building. But the same radio can literally work the International Station, 200 miles overhead. And folks do that regularly, because that's a 200-mile clear line of sight. "Range" can get very technical.
Superswiss-
Bear in mind that Tobias is a well known and vocal security consultant, but the guys he was talking to supposedly deal with government agencies, in the security business. And that means they do not necessarily want to show and tell everything that they really are selling, much less encourage their competition. It is the concept, not the details, that really is the heart of the matter. Like when the original Ace brand (tubular cylinder) locks came out, those were widely sold as "pick proof" because there were no picking tools for them. IIRC it took the government agencies about a year to figure out a universal pick tool for them, but a decade more for that to get common.
I'm sure that there must be ingenious ways to use encryption (hardware chips, similar to TPM in computers) and clever software tricks to see if a transmitter is genuine and valid. But as with everything else, making ANY change with ANY extra cost, times how many million key fobs? They just aren't motivated. In fact, the OralB electric toothbrushes, now with Bluetooth links in the top models, actually use accelerometers and position sensors from the cell phone industry to figure out which quadrant of your mouth they are in, to make sure you're brushing evenly. And one of the "insurance dongle" companies looks at your cell phone's accelerometer to see if you've entered a car by twisting clockwise or counterclockwise, indicating that you are the driver or passenger. There are LOTS of ingenious things they can do, but very little motivation for anyone to be the first to market with it.
What was that James Bond movie, where his Lotus has a little "Burglar Protected" sticker on the side window? And it goes up in a ball of thunder when someone tries to burgle it?(VBG)