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C&D really doesn't want anyone in Europe to read their stories, as that link is blocked to. Probably as they have sister sites in some parts of Europe, such as Spain.
But I remember reading in an Automobile review of the C63S, when they were struggling to get a decent lap time, Tobias Moers told them to use Manual mode as it has (an undocumented) map that provides more progressive traction on the track. Plus they fitted new tyres (Michelin PSS).
I'm curious how the RS5 would fair against the new facelifted 2019 C63S. Hope somebody is gonna do a head-to-head. The 2019 does a much much better job at putting down traction thanks to the new 9-stage traction control first seen in the GT-R and essentially lifted straight from Formula 1. Even if you don't adjust the stages yourself and just let the computer do it based on the current AMG Dynamics mode from what I've seen there is a major difference in how the 2019 is able to put the power on the road and those who have driven the pre-facelift and now the facelift have noticed that the car feels very different in how it puts the power down. The improved suspension tuning and the new 9-speed transmission probably add to it.
I'm curious how the RS5 would fair against the new facelifted 2019 C63S. Hope somebody is gonna do a head-to-head. The 2019 does a much much better job at putting down traction thanks to the new 9-stage traction control first seen in the GT-R and essentially lifted straight from Formula 1. Even if you don't adjust the stages yourself and just let the computer do it based on the current AMG Dynamics mode from what I've seen there is a major difference in how the 2019 is able to put the power on the road and those who have driven the pre-facelift and now the facelift have noticed that the car feels very different in how it puts the power down. The improved suspension tuning and the new 9-speed transmission probably add to it.
There's a video b9rs5 vs c63s and M4
M4 smokes them on the track time but the RS5 beat the c63
I'm curious how the RS5 would fair against the new facelifted 2019 C63S. Hope somebody is gonna do a head-to-head. The 2019 does a much much better job at putting down traction thanks to the new 9-stage traction control first seen in the GT-R and essentially lifted straight from Formula 1. Even if you don't adjust the stages yourself and just let the computer do it based on the current AMG Dynamics mode from what I've seen there is a major difference in how the 2019 is able to put the power on the road and those who have driven the pre-facelift and now the facelift have noticed that the car feels very different in how it puts the power down. The improved suspension tuning and the new 9-speed transmission probably add to it.
Even though I was reading the R&T PCOTY report in error when I was checking out the comments on the Civic Type R, it seemed pretty obvious that the monstrous track performance that the AMG GT R achieved (which seemed to be largely discounted by R&T) was largely due to the 9 stage traction control system. So it obviously works very well, at least in dry conditions on a track. And it looks like they were getting the computer to do most of the work rather than actively adjusting the stages themselves.
But then, it doesn't matter whether AMG put a 15 stage traction control system on the C63S - it will never be able to match the traction of quattro (specifically self-locking centre diff in conjunction with the Sports diff). As the quattro system minimises the need for traction control much of the time. But then, I think you already know that
I'm not sure how the new traction control system on the C63s update will behave on the road. Certainly better from the sound of it. And the C63S is already more linear than the M4, which is like a light switch in its throttle response. I think the even bigger news, certainly for road use, is they have improved the suspension. They needed to. I think the first consideration point is where you live and how you will use the car. For me, a a RWD with a high torque engine is useless as a year round car. You're driving canyon roads in California - seems like a decent environment where you get most of the gain, and less of the pain. But there's a reason that both M Division and AMG are moving more of their product to AWD platforms. It makes them more usable, and more relevant to more parts of the world.
I say all this not having driven any of these cars on a track, but then most know the RS5 was developed as a GT car except for a couple on this thread that missed the June 2017 memo, perhaps Audi Sport should have added a GT badge:
Source: Audi Media Global Site
Still, I too prefer the B8 RS5's engine and transmission to the B9. I still prefer the B8 S5's engine and transmission to the B9 S5 versions, as I first wrote in late 2016 when I was deciding about replacement cars. Even though in both cases the new combinations are both faster and more efficient. But that's only part of the package. If the C63 was available in AWD, I'd certainly consider it closely (wagon/estate/T version though), although there are many design and ergonomic features that I don't like at all. I suspect I would still get the RS4 though. Here's one for you, from someone who really loved the B8's V8: Audi B9 RS4 Car Advice - Get the Kids Screaming
I think in terms of future models, Daimler may be more likely to get it right than Audi or BMW. It is complete chaos at VAG in terms of management and direction. BMW is madly trying to increase margins, and reducing costs. Which they have been doing for some years anyway, but need to accelerate to get them through the WLTP/EV development cycle. Not sure they can do this alone. Daimler had to sell 15% or so of the company to the Chinese to build up the war chest (and to provide better access into the monster Chinese market). VAG is big enough to go it alone, but they are stripping Audi to build up funds. As it stands, I wouldn't be surprised if they end Audi Sport and have RS models released under the Porsche brand, as that is how they have defined the brands' roles under their new structure.
As an aside, traction control has been banned in F1 since 2008. And the Mercedes-AMG branded F1 engines are made in Brixworth, England. And have nothing to do with Affalterbach in Germany. Each engine is made by a team and not one man, and whose first names are usually Bruce, Geoff, Bill, etc. Still, their new inline engines are using hybrid technology that does have direct links to Mercedes F1 engineering. So it isn't all marketing
Even though I was reading the R&T PCOTY report in error when I was checking out the comments on the Civic Type R, it seemed pretty obvious that the monstrous track performance that the AMG GT R achieved (which seemed to be largely discounted by R&T) was largely due to the 9 stage traction control system. So it obviously works very well, at least in dry conditions on a track. And it looks like they were getting the computer to do most of the work rather than actively adjusting the stages themselves.
But then, it doesn't matter whether AMG put a 15 stage traction control system on the C63S - it will never be able to match the traction of quattro (specifically self-locking centre diff in conjunction with the Sports diff). As the quattro system minimises the need for traction control much of the time. But then, I think you already know that
I'm not sure how the new traction control system on the C63s update will behave on the road. Certainly better from the sound of it. And the C63S is already more linear than the M4, which is like a light switch in its throttle response. I think the even bigger news, certainly for road use, is they have improved the suspension. They needed to. I think the first consideration point is where you live and how you will use the car. For me, a a RWD with a high torque engine is useless as a year round car. You're driving canyon roads in California - seems like a decent environment where you get most of the gain, and less of the pain. But there's a reason that both M Division and AMG are moving more of their product to AWD platforms. It makes them more usable, and more relevant to more parts of the world.
I say all this not having driven any of these cars on a track, but then most know the RS5 was developed as a GT car except for a couple on this thread that missed the June 2017 memo, perhaps Audi Sport should have added a GT badge:
Source: Audi Media Global Site
Still, I too prefer the B8 RS5's engine and transmission to the B9. I still prefer the B8 S5's engine and transmission to the B9 S5 versions, as I first wrote in late 2016 when I was deciding about replacement cars. Even though in both cases the new combinations are both faster and more efficient. But that's only part of the package. If the C63 was available in AWD, I'd certainly consider it closely (wagon/estate/T version though), although there are many design and ergonomic features that I don't like at all. I suspect I would still get the RS4 though. Here's one for you, from someone who really loved the B8's V8: Audi B9 RS4 Car Advice - Get the Kids Screaming
I think in terms of future models, Daimler may be more likely to get it right than Audi or BMW. It is complete chaos at VAG in terms of management and direction. BMW is madly trying to increase margins, and reducing costs. Which they have been doing for some years anyway, but need to accelerate to get them through the WLTP/EV development cycle. Not sure they can do this alone. Daimler had to sell 15% or so of the company to the Chinese to build up the war chest (and to provide better access into the monster Chinese market). VAG is big enough to go it alone, but they are stripping Audi to build up funds. As it stands, I wouldn't be surprised if they end Audi Sport and have RS models released under the Porsche brand, as that is how they have defined the brands' roles under their new structure.
As an aside, traction control has been banned in F1 since 2008. And the Mercedes-AMG branded F1 engines are made in Brixworth, England. And have nothing to do with Affalterbach in Germany. Each engine is made by a team and not one man, and whose first names are usually Bruce, Geoff, Bill, etc. Still, their new inline engines are using hybrid technology that does have direct links to Mercedes F1 engineering. So it isn't all marketing
I do like Quattro in the B8 RS5 for the performance in the canyons. I don't need the all-weather traction. It's the best incarnation yet IMO. It's just playful enough to allow some drift angles before the front pull the car straight. But it's gotten all a bit too clinical in the B9. Audi doesn't believe in drifting fun. 60% to the rear is nice, but what I really want is 100% to the rear until traction on the front is required and a switchable full 2WD like BMW and AMG have started to do is icing on the cake. I would love if the C63 came with the 4-Matic+ from the E63, but I'm ready to go back to RWD for a bit. Especially now that they pretty much all have electronic trick differentials and I am looking forward to the new traction control system. I want a car again where driver skill can still make a difference and I long for a clean steering again that doesn't have to compete with the front wheels driving the car. My guess is this is the last generation of a pure RWD C63 and M4.
C&D got obsessive w/ traction control on the GT-R...
"We experimented with various traction-control settings for different corners. For areas of the track with high grip, we settled on position seven. Bitch falls off-camber and many cars oversteer on exit, so we dialed two clicks to the right (for more active traction control) on the back straight, one click left after Bitch, and one more left after exiting Spiral (bringing it back to position seven). So seamless are the traction-*control interventions that, unless you’re zeroed-in on the light ring around the dial that strobes when the system activates, you’ll never know it’s working." https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...p-2017-feature
They are getting a bit of a black eye here from certain quarters, but in fact they spend three days at Lightning Lap getting the most they can out of each car. Sometimes they end up with solutions which are counter-intuitive. This year, for instance, they ran the M5 in standard AWD.
I do like Quattro in the B8 RS5 for the performance in the canyons. I don't need the all-weather traction. It's the best incarnation yet IMO. It's just playful enough to allow some drift angles before the front pull the car straight. But it's gotten all a bit too clinical in the B9. Audi doesn't believe in drifting fun. 60% to the rear is nice, but what I really want is 100% to the rear until traction on the front is required and a switchable full 2WD like BMW and AMG have started to do is icing on the cake. I would love if the C63 came with the 4-Matic+ from the E63, but I'm ready to go back to RWD for a bit. Especially now that they pretty much all have electronic trick differentials and I am looking forward to the new traction control system. I want a car again where driver skill can still make a difference and I long for a clean steering again that doesn't have to compete with the front wheels driving the car. My guess is this is the last generation of a pure RWD C63 and M4.
I get that, and you're in a place where you can enjoy the C63S most of the time, rather than curse it half the time. I'd be tempted to do the same. When I was living in a similar climate to yours, I drove RWD BMWs. But then that was E36 and E39, and I'm still waiting for them to actually improve on those.
That AMG V8 engine is one of the few evocative ones still going around. Soon enough, we'll be driving around in Scalextric cars arguing about average speed over distance travelled. Sturm und Drang, whilst we can.
If important, just check what AMG have done with the exhaust system. The RS5 is compliant with the latest Euro noise regulations, which are quite tough. The new version of the C63S will also need to be compliant. In theory switchable exhausts are banned. IIRC, the RS5 will not open all its flaps until a certain speed is achieved - road speed, not engine speed. That determines whether you are in an urban area or not, and I think it was around 70kph or so that the exhaust opened up completely. As none of this is needed in the US, AMG may not bring in a "restricted version"? But I was reading an AMG forum quite recently, and the owner complained that after the most recent software update, he has substantially reduced exhaust sound. Can't remember the model, nor even the country, unfortunately.
A little surprised you found the B9's handling more clinical then the B8, but I suspect we have had this discussion before when you did your test run through your canyons. Seems like C&D could use some tips though, given they couldn't get the rear end quiet
As for the switchable AWD systems that M Div and AMG are using in the 5 and E, there is a comparison review just out that amused me greatly. Mainly because the M5 and E63s were being driven on snow. Don't remember that being the type of chosen road test venue when the RS6 was around. You may find the comments on AWD interesting. And the Renault Scenic puts things in perspective:
I get that, and you're in a place where you can enjoy the C63S most of the time, rather than curse it half the time. I'd be tempted to do the same. When I was living in a similar climate to yours, I drove RWD BMWs. But then that was E36 and E39, and I'm still waiting for them to actually improve on those.
That AMG V8 engine is one of the few evocative ones still going around. Soon enough, we'll be driving around in Scalextric cars arguing about average speed over distance travelled. Sturm und Drang, whilst we can.
If important, just check what AMG have done with the exhaust system. The RS5 is compliant with the latest Euro noise regulations, which are quite tough. The new version of the C63S will also need to be compliant. In theory switchable exhausts are banned. IIRC, the RS5 will not open all its flaps until a certain speed is achieved - road speed, not engine speed. That determines whether you are in an urban area or not, and I think it was around 70kph or so that the exhaust opened up completely. As none of this is needed in the US, AMG may not bring in a "restricted version"? But I was reading an AMG forum quite recently, and the owner complained that after the most recent software update, he has substantially reduced exhaust sound. Can't remember the model, nor even the country, unfortunately.
A little surprised you found the B9's handling more clinical then the B8, but I suspect we have had this discussion before when you did your test run through your canyons. Seems like C&D could use some tips though, given they couldn't get the rear end quiet
As for the switchable AWD systems that M Div and AMG are using in the 5 and E, there is a comparison review just out that amused me greatly. Mainly because the M5 and E63s were being driven on snow. Don't remember that being the type of chosen road test venue when the RS6 was around. You may find the comments on AWD interesting. And the Renault Scenic puts things in perspective:
Yeah, I'm utterly confused about the exhaust noise rules to be honest. I keep wondering how AMG can still do it. The exhaust is still switchable if you watch the various reviews from the unveiling at the Bilster Berg. Those were all German spec models. They did put in the new particle filter, but they did not compromise on the sound. AMG did say the car is supposed to be quieter, but nobody thinks it is. One thing they appear to have done is pipe more noise into the interior, which I find great. Ultimately, I'm inside the car and its about the sound I can hear from the cabin and it's not fake. If I compare to the pre-facelift, the sound is slightly different and definitely more pronounced inside the car. I've heard that AMG did some tricks by enhancing certain frequency ranges and mute others which makes the sound continue to be great, but perhaps it doesn't travel as far. Not entirely sure what's really going on here, but one thing is clear, AMG seems to be able to still make great sounding cars despite the rules. I think Audi Sport could have found ways to enhance the sound in the cabin. They have in the past done artificially with the Soundaktor, similar to BMWs fake sound, but AMG seems to know how to produce great real interior noise from the exhaust. The exhaust still bangs, pops and crackles in Sport+.
As for AWD, I think there are really two different takes. There's the utilitarian AWD, the kind Subaru is famous for that is mostly about all-weather traction. To be honest a 50/50 split is best for that. And then there is AWD for the sake of performance and the desire there is rear-bias, but that's not really good for all-weather traction. I have never looked at AWD from a utilitarian standpoint. For me it's always been about performance. From what I've read, Subaru does better in the snow than the rear biased Quattro versions. After all Quattro now can only send up to 70% to the front, unless the ESP is helping along, whereas it can send up to 85% to the rear. I still view the M5 and E63 as mainly dry climate cars, that are not completely lost if you find yourself in deep snow with the right tires, but I wouldn't buy either one if winter driving capabilities would be high on my list of requirements.
Last edited by superswiss; 09-24-2018 at 04:02 PM.
I’m sorry guys, but anything that has an “RS” badge, is meant to be a sports car. The GT is the S5, as it’s more about comfort and sport. The RS5 is a direct competitor to the M4. I don’t classify the M4 as a GT. Sure, the RS7, M5 and M6 could be GT cars, because of their sizes. To me, if I am buying an RS5, I’m expecting it to ride firm, handle well and have good acceleration. The RS5 is very good. Once the Sportback is release I can very much see myself trading in for one. Seems to be the perfect sports car to me.
I’m sorry guys, but anything that has an “RS” badge, is meant to be a sports car. The GT is the S5, as it’s more about comfort and sport. The RS5 is a direct competitor to the M4. I don’t classify the M4 as a GT. Sure, the RS7, M5 and M6 could be GT cars, because of their sizes. To me, if I am buying an RS5, I’m expecting it to ride firm, handle well and have good acceleration. The RS5 is very good. Once the Sportback is release I can very much see myself trading in for one. Seems to be the perfect sports car to me.
Despite everything, I don't agree with this at all and most who truly understand what a GT is probably won't, either. Unfortunately, the term GT is one of those often misused terms. Especially in the USA where the GT really doesn't have much of a history. There's nothing wrong with a GT. In fact, I do want a GT. The RS5 is a GT, always has been, the C63 Coupe is a GT, the M4 is a GT and what might come as a surprise, the 911 is technically a GT. The 911 GT3 was built specifically for GT racing.
Wikipedia has a pretty good explanation of what a GT is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_tourer. But it's essentially a performance car that offers luxury and comfort for long distance driving. Some do it better than others, but the main difference between a sports car and a GT is that the former is more spartan. There aren't really many cars these days that truly qualify as a sports car. They all are more on the GT side. The most common format is a 2+2 RWD front engine Coupe.
A GT is supposed to offer enough practicality for 2 people for a weekend out of town, can be used to travel long distances at high speeds in relative comfort, but also offer driving thrills when demanded. It's when people talk about the car having dual personality.
Last edited by superswiss; 09-24-2018 at 06:01 PM.
09-22-2018, 11:40 PM
