TheWalrus

Audi's timing for pulling the Allroad looks particularly poor. There is definitely a market out there for an off-road-capable crossover wagon with ~250 horsepower. After owning an A4 2.8 QTS I couldn't imagine driving something that corners like an SUV.

According to some previews of the 2005 Subaru Outback, it looks to be a serious contentder:

(snip)
Sporty Subaru Outback 2.5 XT and 2.5 XT Limited models are powered by a turbocharged four-cylinder engine with an Active Valve Control System (AVCS - or variable valve timing to the rest of us) that makes 250 horsepower at 5,600 rpm and 250 lb.-ft. of torque at 3,600 rpm running on premium fuel. A boon at high altitude climates where the air is thin and turbo engines rule, the Outback 2.5 XT is meant to be the driver's Outback. A five-speed manual transmission is standard with a five-speed automatic optional. The manually-interactive Sportshift automatic has steering wheel buttons to control gear changes and comes equipped with 17-inch alloy wheels.

Upscale Subaru Outback 3.0 R models come standard with a six-cylinder engine generating 250 horsepower at 6,600 rpm and 219 lb.-ft. torque at 4,200 rpm. It requires premium fuel, and includes AVCS as well as an Active Valve Lift System (AVLS) to boost power over the old six by 38hp and 2 lb.-ft. It drives power through a standard five-speed Sportshift manually interactive automatic transmission and rides on 17-inch wheels. Two versions of the Outback 3.0 R are available - L.L. Bean Edition and VDC Limited.
(snip)

This car probably won't be quite as refined as the Allroad and clearly deserves a 6-speed manual rather than a 5-speed, but it's indicative of where the market is headed.
Personally, I would love to see an A4-derived, off-road capable wagon. Don't think it's in the cards...

-James
1998 A4 QTS with all the bells and whistels (stock)<ul><li><a href="http://www.autosite.com/Previews/2005-subaru-outback.asp">http://www.autosite.com/Previews/2005-subaru-outback.asp</a></li></ul>

ShowMeData

On paper it may seem to be comparable, but drivability isn't even in the same league.

I (geek warning) think of drivability as the area under the torque curve. With the 2.7T's flat torque curve beginning at 1850 rpm, it is the most 'drivable' turbo I've ever laid foot to. The single-turbo 2.5l Subaru is much, much peakier - if it's anything like the WRX, it's jsut not worth comparing. The WRX is one that you have to "drive it like you stole it" to get any enjoyment at all. I took a test drive, and with the salesman's admonition to keep it under 4k rpm it was impossible to get anything from it.

Although it will be &gt;$15k cheaper.

My $.02. Cheers.

vtheman

I don't know why but I just can't stand subary's design.

03Indigo

quality and fit and finish on the new outback won't even be close to the allroad. I have test driven the WRX and the STi. The STi was way fun, but practicle, not a chance. A radio is not even an option in that car. The WRX was a huge let down, advertising got the best of me, so I looked at them, my 1.8T Passat felt faster (easier to enjoy is how I should put it), you really do need to drive the WRX like you stole it to get any fun out of it...

cheers
jon

ch7656

may be perfect for someone like you that wants something smaller than the a/r

LenE

and the fact that the Outback/Legacy is much lighter than the allroad. With 250 normally aspirated horses, the H6 will be drivable, and it will have a better power/weight ration than the allroad.

Subaru is definitely trying to move out of their niche, and into the same area that Volkswagen and Volvo are moving into. If this new Outback had an air adjustable suspension, I would say that they were squarely targeting the allroad. Since they sell many more Outbacks and Legacy's as it is, I doubt that the allroad even showed up on their planning radar.

-- Len

allroadDC

Given that with a simple reprogramming the 2.7T can go over 300 hp, a 2.5 liter turbo can easily do 250 hp. The displacement is not all that different. The V6 turbo engine will be smoother than the H4 turbo engine, and as stated earlier, it will be peakier.
Given that the new Legacy/Outback will only weigh 3300 lbs, it should be quicker an allroad (depending on how it is geared), it will also be more fuel efficient.
I should also point out that the Legacy is NOT an Imprezza, WRX or STI. It has a higher standard and will be "closer" to the allroad/A6 in fit finish and refinement than the WRX, but not quite make it. I think some of you with the Imprezza in mind, will be surprised how nice this car is.
Personally I wish it had an air suspension like the allroad. The new Outback has a 8.4 inch ride height -- way excessive for 90% of driving, and ultimately the type of vehicle it is. A height-adjustable air suspension in the Outback would make it perfect -- and I would have given them my deposit already...

ShowMeData

That's all the Audi turbos do, really, is fatten up the lower end of the curve. The weight is a big deal, though.

All Italian

No competition! The AR will be gone! And poor timing by Audi

SLLAW

The US-Canada version of the new Legacy, it seems, will lack many of the features that are available in other markets. If Subaru offered Americans the self-levelling rear suspension, six-speed manual gearbox, satnav, McIntosh audio and other goodies, I'd strongly consider a six-cylinder, three-liter Legacy wagon as well as the Outback. Subaru has hinted, according to reports, that there will be a six-cylinder turbocharged Legacy to do battle with the Audi S4 4.2 and the BMW M3.