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Energy consumption values

Old 12-20-2018, 05:19 PM
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Default Energy consumption values

This video has a lot of interesting information. There's a 0-60mph run on pavement (~5 seconds with boost mode) and some interesting information on the regenerative braking settings. What caught my attention was the energy consumption tests. They aren't controlled scientific tests, but probably fairly real-world. He mentions 24-28kwh/100km. I've been estimating about 225 mile range in-town and 190 mile range on the highway (with an estimate of about 150 miles in-town in freezing cold weather). Given the usable pack capacity of 83.6 kwh, these results put it at 216 miles combined and 192 miles @ 75 mph. The road quality and temperature in the video are close to ideal so the measurements seem reasonable.

Of course, there are too many range factors to mention and it will be good to see the EPA ratings, but this is an interesting baseline. Some people may be disappointed by these results but I have a long history with owning and building EV's and this is very reasonable for this vehicle.

95% of my use is in town (charged at home) and I have other vehicles if required for longer/faster trips. However, I use Interstate 90 in the northwest USA, and Electrify America has spaced the fast chargers 200 miles apart. I think this is a big mistake. Anyone travelling in winter will be unable to span the distance and in summer will require very slow highway speeds. There may be other non-Electrify America charging options but that can get inconvenient very fast. The reliability of these chargers is going to be critical and some don't have a good track record.


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Last edited by alexlear; 12-21-2018 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 12-21-2018, 04:26 AM
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ChargePoint (https://www.chargepoint.com) locations seem to be just about everywhere throughout the US. There are several within five miles of my home that are provided free by the County of Riverside, California.
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Old 12-21-2018, 07:26 AM
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Overall, there are many potential charging options (plugshare.com). If you look closer, you'll see that those chargepoint chargers are 24-55kw chargers and there are reviews that show them out-of-order far to often to be relied on for long distance travel. Charging at that rate will provide 2-4 hours charge times and queues to even charge. Tesla superchargers (can't use with e-tron) and CCS2 chargers are the only ones I really consider for long distance travel because of the charge rate.
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Old 12-22-2018, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by alexlear View Post
This video has a lot of interesting information. There's a 0-60mph run on pavement (~5 seconds with boost mode) and some interesting information on the regenerative braking settings. What caught my attention was the energy consumption tests. They aren't controlled scientific tests, but probably fairly real-world. He mentions 24-28kwh/100km. I've been estimating about 225 mile range in-town and 190 mile range on the highway (with an estimate of about 150 miles in-town in freezing cold weather). Given the usable pack capacity of 83.6 kwh, these results put it at 216 miles combined and 192 miles @ 75 mph. The road quality and temperature in the video are close to ideal so the measurements seem reasonable.

Of course, there are too many range factors to mention and it will be good to see the EPA ratings, but this is an interesting baseline. Some people may be disappointed by these results but I have a long history with owning and building EV's and this is very reasonable for this vehicle.

95% of my use is in town (charged at home) and I have other vehicles if required for longer/faster trips. However, I use Interstate 90 in the northwest USA, and Electrify America has spaced the fast chargers 200 miles apart. I think this is a big mistake. Anyone travelling in winter will be unable to span the distance and in summer will require very slow highway speeds. There may be other non-Electrify America charging options but that can get inconvenient very fast. The reliability of these chargers is going to be critical and some don't have a good track record.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7Sda74nYHA

Alex
Great video, the consumption figures are mostly at higher speeds, if you watch in the video. That being said, the E-Tron seems to have consumption that will be similar to a Tesla Model X, or Jaguar I-pace.

200 mile spacing on the Electrify America Chargers? You must drive a different I-90 then I do... From Seattle going East there is a charger in North Bend (31 miles from Seattle) Ellensburg which is + or - 70 miles from North Bend, Ritzville (oops, that one might still be secret) (115 miles from Ellensburg) Spokane this is about 70 miles from Ritzville. EA is adding quite a few more chargers not listed on their site currently, just be patient for a few more months.
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Old 12-22-2018, 12:44 PM
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Tom-ETRON, Thanks for the info. My estimates are based on the values given in the video. He gives three data points: combined, 120kph, and 140kph. These are approximate to the interstate highway speed limits. As I mentioned, these aren't scientific by any means and they are rounded whole consumption numbers but I believe them to be accurate. Everything I've seen from various sources leads me to believe that the consumption is much higher than the Model X. An equivalent model X is the 75D (a full 20kwh smaller battery). This reduces the comparison benefit of the 150kw e-tron charging capability. I'm not in the market for a Model X but its worth noting that Tesla does have an advantage here. Here's a link that has Tesla ranges for comparison. https://teslike.com/range/.

I make the trip from Montana to the coast on I-90 so the route distances from Missoula-Spokane-Ellensburg matter to me. I measured on Google maps and they are 185miles (not 200) apart. This means its possible (in the summer only) to make this trip but its really going to push the battery to deep depth of discharge (DoD). There are also mountain passes that, despite regenerative braking, still consume more than flat level driving. Electrify America has very defined phases. The first phase definition is complete and in progress and the 2nd phase goals are not focused on my area of travel. I'm hopeful, but not counting on expansion in my area. This info really isn't for me. I understand the challenges and performance of EV's very well. However, there are a lot of people that will find this a problem and potentially misunderstand the capabilities of the vehicle.

I would really like it if you're right and there was one in Ritzville. There's an EVgo CCS charger there but its just one(!) stall. Where do you get your information on chargers not listed on the official Electrify America site? I don't see the Ritzville locaiton on plugshare either.

I don't mean to sound down on EA. I think they're are a great option. I'm forced to be realistic about the situation though. I won't truly judge them until mid next year when the vehicles start to arrive.

Last edited by alexlear; 12-22-2018 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 12-22-2018, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by alexlear View Post
Tom-ETRON, Thanks for the info. My estimates are based on the values given in the video. He gives three data points: combined, 120kph, and 140kph. These are approximate to the interstate highway speed limits. As I mentioned, these aren't scientific by any means and they are rounded whole consumption numbers but I believe them to be accurate. Everything I've seen from various sources leads me to believe that the consumption is much higher than the Model X. An equivalent model X is the 75D (a full 20kwh smaller battery). This reduces the comparison benefit of the 150kw e-tron charging capability. I'm not in the market for a Model X but its worth noting that Tesla does have an advantage here. Here's a link that has Tesla ranges for comparison. https://teslike.com/range/.

I make the trip from Montana to the coast on I-90 so the route distances from Missoula-Spokane-Ellensburg matter to me. I measured on Google maps and they are 185miles (not 200) apart. This means its possible (in the summer only) to make this trip but its really going to push the battery to deep depth of discharge (DoD). There are also mountain passes that, despite regenerative braking, still consume more than flat level driving. Electrify America has very defined phases. The first phase definition is complete and in progress and the 2nd phase goals are not focused on my area of travel. I'm hopeful, but not counting on expansion in my area. This info really isn't for me. I understand the challenges and performance of EV's very well. However, there are a lot of people that will find this a problem and potentially misunderstand the capabilities of the vehicle.

I would really like it if you're right and there was one in Ritzville. There's an EVgo CCS charger there but its just one(!) stall. Where do you get your information on chargers not listed on the official Electrify America site? I don't see the Ritzville locaiton on plugshare either.

I don't mean to sound down on EA. I think they're are a great option. I'm forced to be realistic about the situation though. I won't truly judge them until mid next year when the vehicles start to arrive.

For Efficiency I say we wait until someone who knows how to test gets hold of an E-Tron for range testing, I hope Bjorn Nyland gets one soon, as he is very familiar, and consistent on his test methods. He rates the Model X 90D at 190 Miles "Real World", at average speeds well below 120-140 km/h.
E-Tron is heavy, and slightly less aerodynamic than the Tesla Model X so I expect it to be slightly less efficient, but my guess is within 10% on motorways. Charging on the other hand, the E-Tron blows the Tesla X out of the water, charging at over 145 kW average from 20-80% SOC (the most often used SOC range on a road trip), in that same range Tesla Model X averages about 80 kW charging rate, and if you need to go full range and charge the Tesla to 100%, the ratio to E-Tron is even worse (E-Tron got a great cooling system). On a long trip, with multiple charges, the Tesla Model X will be left in the dust. Now, before you mention V3 Superchargers (they don't exist), be aware Model X & S cannot even take the full charge rate of the current Superchargers, so I doubt a new charger is going to be able to push in any more current, as the battery charging efficiency (cell internal resistance), and cooling system cannot take much more.

On EA, I just know... Nobody gets in trouble for saying that... There are actually quite a few more stations coming to our area as part of Cycle 1 investments. A few locations I know about, but not listed on PlugShare are in Federal Way, Bellingham, Longview, Marysville, Yakima, Ritzville. You will see these locations added right after the first of the year as the permits are issued. At the end of June 2019 we should see 43 stations in WA, OR, ID, MT, completed, or under construction. On a national level there are currently 219 EA locations showing on PlugShare, that number should be 484 by the end of June 2019 as that was the number used by the EA CEO last week to CARB. I do not think you will see any serious Cycle 2 ramp up in investments until 2020... My guess is Cycle 2 will really ramp up right before we start seeing Taycan, and ID Crozz hit the market.

Have you seen the E-Tron in person yet? I got to sit in one recently, its really a nice car, makes a Tesla feel cheap and spartan inside by comparison. I was really surprised how similar E-Tron is to the Q8, I took some measurements, and will compare next time I stop by an Audi store.
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Old 12-22-2018, 04:11 PM
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I agree with all you said and I'm really interested to see what Bjorns impressions are after driving the vehicle. To be fair to Tesla, we're comparing Teslas current (and many years old) Model X cell/pack design with Audis brand new design. Audi, no doubt, learned from the Tesla design. Its very possible that Tesla could update the pack for future supercharger improvements. Elon has said this on one of the last quarterly investor calls. Again proving competition is good for the consumer.

Thanks for the info on the EA network expansion. I'm looking forward to it. I'll be curious over the next few years to know what the "up time" is on the EA network chargers. It seems that Tesla does a good job making sure their chargers are in good working order because the network is existential to their business model.

I haven't seen or sat in the e-tron. Like most people, I reserved without the benefit of seeing it in person. I doubt one will come my way to see before I take delivery. I own two Audis (A8/S5) and believe in Audi's engineering, even with this new drivetrain technology. The early reviews so far seem to be positive. I also currently own two EVs (one that I built) so I know what to expect on that side.

I think Tesla is currently capable of building a better EV but Audi is capable of building a better car. The question for the future is will Audi become more competent at building EVs faster than Tesla becomes competent at building great cars. With all that said, I believe in Teslas mission more than VW/Audis, which was born from dieselgate.
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Old 12-22-2018, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by alexlear View Post
I agree with all you said and I'm really interested to see what Bjorns impressions are after driving the vehicle. To be fair to Tesla, we're comparing Teslas current (and many years old) Model X cell/pack design with Audis brand new design. Audi, no doubt, learned from the Tesla design. Its very possible that Tesla could update the pack for future supercharger improvements. Elon has said this on one of the last quarterly investor calls. Again proving competition is good for the consumer.

Thanks for the info on the EA network expansion. I'm looking forward to it. I'll be curious over the next few years to know what the "up time" is on the EA network chargers. It seems that Tesla does a good job making sure their chargers are in good working order because the network is existential to their business model.

I haven't seen or sat in the e-tron. Like most people, I reserved without the benefit of seeing it in person. I doubt one will come my way to see before I take delivery. I own two Audis (A8/S5) and believe in Audi's engineering, even with this new drivetrain technology. The early reviews so far seem to be positive. I also currently own two EVs (one that I built) so I know what to expect on that side.

I think Tesla is currently capable of building a better EV but Audi is capable of building a better car. The question for the future is will Audi become more competent at building EVs faster than Tesla becomes competent at building great cars. With all that said, I believe in Teslas mission more than VW/Audis, which was born from dieselgate.
Yes, we are comparing Tesla's current product offering, with Audi's. Tesla will be able to add the 2170 battery cells to the S and X in the future (Once they finish GF1 and get production up to a sustainable level) However understanding the complexity of higher charging, the S and X need different cells, and a redesigned cooling system (basically a new pack, and revised EV architecture) Tesla has announced an S and X refresh for 3Q 2019, which will be interior only, and a full chassis update in 2021 (reported by Electrek earlier this year). Knowing Tesla's ambition Semi, Roadster, Model Y, etc, they have a lot of ambitions, but no battery factory capable of making all the batteries as GF1 is running full out 24-7 just to keep up with Model 3 production which has never reached the full production Tesla has stated to be ramping to. The manager in charge of GF1 just quit last month... Hmmm... Once Tesla gets the S and X able to handle faster charging, then they need to rebuild their entire charging network for the higher charging level. VW is way ahead here, because not only do they have a charging network capable fo the next gen 150 kW, but they are also leapfrogging and adding 1000v & 350 kW capability for the next generation of cars starting with the Porsche Taycan. Anyway, I am not ******* on Tesla, but sometimes when a company has such huge growth ambitions, they have trouble changing tech with the market, personally I think VW, GM, and other were smart to hold back their EV ambitions until the EV tech advances another generation or two.

As for Tesla's ability to build a better EV? Hmm, they made the model 3 efficient, however Kona matched it in a package that has more utility for most families. The Supercharger network is great, but will quickly be obsolete (Note Tesla going to CCS plugs in Europe for Model 3). I am a luxury buyer, I want a quiet car, comfortable seats, and loaded with usable options. Tesla never really impressed me with their build quality, and options availability. I have never purchased an Audi of any VW product, but respect their engineering. E-Tron will be good, in some ways much better than Tesla, although consumption might be a bit worse. Not too many luxury segment buyers care about fuel economy, they want massaging seats, and tight build quality....

EA will have a station between Missoula, and Spokane, but I am not familiar with that part of the route. I will ask next opportunity with the EA folks. From EA's website.... Since they are serving I-90 corridor to Western Montana, I am sure all the same design guidelines apply.
DC Fast EV Charging Along Highway Corridors
Electrify America’s DC Fast EV charging stations will be located along high-traffic corridors in 39 states, including two cross-country routes. Locations will accommodate between four and ten chargers, with charging power levels up to 350kW available at every station, capable of adding 20 miles of range per minute to a vehicle. Nationally, each planned station site will be located no more than 120 miles apart and, on key East and West Coast highways, planned locations average only 70 miles apart.

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Old 12-22-2018, 07:53 PM
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I agree with what you're saying. You clearly follow the industry closely, as do I. The EA expansion in my area will be a very welcome.
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Old 12-22-2018, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by alexlear View Post
I agree with what you're saying. You clearly follow the industry closely, as do I. The EA expansion in my area will be a very welcome.

I have an interest in EV's, Charging, and cars in general, so I try to follow the happenings. It is getting pretty exciting in the EV world, there are going to be so many great options coming soon. I drove the I-Pace, its a nice car that is fun to drive, but its really the refinement of the systems (infotainment), and charging that got me to consider the E-Tron.

BTW you were talking about consumption, Kim from Like Tesla just posted a video about her Model X lifetime consumption, which she drives gently and only has 20" wheels (lives in Atlanta...mild climate) and is averaging 435 wh/mi, I will bet the E-Tron driven the same way will end up in that neighborhood or possibly slightly lower consumption unless you have a disproportionate number of I-90 miles at 70+ mph.

Are you excited to test out Audi's brake by wire? I have always liked to drive an EV in a 1 pedal manner, but having the car do the modulation for you sounds great on a long trip, and highway driving. Audi claims their 2 pedal system is better at energy recovery than all but the elite hyper mile drivers can achieve with a single pedal. I think the gliding mode will be great for highway efficiency as most drivers 1 pedal have trouble modulating the pedal and finding that exact neutral spot. I am open minded, and excited to try the automatic mode, see if it works better then my 1 pedal skill.
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