gk1

...and that is exactly why the e-tron has a 204 mile range. Audi may get caught from time to time but there is no denying their genius.
Have a 300+ mile range debut e-tron SUV and wave goodbye to Q8 sales...wave goodbye to Q7 sales for that matter....who gives a .... if they are bigger or slightly different...they'll all be electric eventually but you can't blow everyone (including yourself) out of the water on your first EV model. I'm convinced they hold back...and always have.
With the masses clamoring for an EV there will be no shortage of demand even if it is somewhat range deficient. Give the people something... anything to compete with the almighty Tesla is exactly what they did while they re-organize to get fully "electrified". Just give it time..."suddenly" there will be a breakthrough in solid state batteries that they've had for a decade and improved motor designs when ICE is not profitable for them or too hard to meet standards. As it is we are on the brink of saying farewell to the dinosaurs of the V8 V10 and W12. Hell, they even abandoned a V6 R8 for the E-tron GT.
I'd bet Edition Two E-trons next year will creep up to 225-250...just as you've already seen with some adjustments like the Taycan.

perlfather

I think you are correct. They need to start competing against Tesla and avoid selling a large number of EVs.
The last Porsche Panorama magazine points out that the cost of a full EV powertrain (incl batteries, electric motor, and inverter is $15,800 - more than 3 times greater than that of an ICE power train ($4,500). In addition, the Porsche sales chief said that for now the added cost of EV will not be passed on to Porsche customers! The Taycan is more costly to make (between $6,800 and $11,300) and Porsche will absorb the extra cost for the time being.

ted99

I doubt that the MT range numbers are the numbers that will appear when the cars do. Perhaps the Porsche, but the e-Tron GT numbers are probably just crossed over from the e-Tron. The Porsche and the e-Tron GT are dedicated skateboard platforms with new 800V battery packs, unlike the ICE-adapted 400V e-Tron. I suspect that when the actual e-Tron GT appears, it will be very similar range to the Porsche. The $10K difference is the Porsche-name Premium. The $64 question is when will the e-Tron GT platform get a crossover-type body? That'll be the resale value killer for the e-Tron. The next crossover-type body will be the new Q4 e-Tron with the skateboard platform in 2020? 800V battery pack for it?

markcincinnati

The weekend edition of the WSJ had a review of the e-tron, saying it already needs a "recharge." Dan Neil had just returned from the presser where he had plenty of time to evaluate the e-tron and he liked the car, but he said Audi had used "off the shelf" batteries (and it showed in the 204 miles per charge according to the EPA.)

Is Tesla able to buy "special batteries," but the rest of the automakers are not? Is Tesla a battery engineering company? If so, that is their competitive advantage. But, a company that includes VW, Porsche, and Audi ought to have a brain trust on-par with Tesla, so why did Audi use "off the shelf" components? It seems out of character.

DMcDnald

Audi's batteries come from LG Chem, Tesla from Panasonic. I doubt there's too much difference in the batteries. The difference in efficiency probably comes fro the motors used, the size of the buffer, battery management, weight, aerodynamics.

ted99

I think the WSJ article is written by a journalist. The Tesla uses a gazillion round Lithium Ion battery cells which look very much like AA battery cells (slightly larger) while Audi (and almost everyone else) is using Lithium Ion pouch cells. The form factor is the major difference. There are reports that the Tesla battery factory generates almost as much waste as product. I think Toyota persists in using NiMh round cells, which are heavier and have less energy density. BMW's first generation of EV batteries in the i3 went to a second generation with 50% greater capacity in the same size, and is now on a third generation which has double the capacity of the first gen battery. It's still Lithium Ion chemistry, but how this improvement has come about is not public knowledge. I agree with DMcDonald on the reason for the difference in efficiency, but Audi "could" have been stuck one step back.

markcincinnati

Actually, I found what has been said here re batteries, etc., is pretty encouraging. I'm not opposed to a Plug-in Hybrid (Q8, theoretically will be available within a year.) The issue I have with the plug-in is that there would probably be an increase in maintenance requirements, whereas an EV loses the ICE and, hence, so much maintenance. One can imagine, for now, some upcoming EVs @ $85,000+ optioned somewhat, discounted (after the initial woo woo time is over) by 5-6% (or more maybe) and then affording the buyer a $7,500 income-tax credit. Then having lower (than a pure ICE or plug-in hybrid) maintenance costs, etc., actually being somewhat of a bargain.

I'm looking forward to the EV future, since the e-tron will only improve in all areas, including miles per charge and time to charge, inevitably.

UmIsThisThingOn

Really respect Dan Neil, and totally agree with his view on Washington DC being the worst US city to drive in.

Tesla partnered with Panasonic on the design and building of their battery packs. They are more vertically integrated in everything; from obtaining the necessary materials, to building the batteries (in Tesla's Gigafactory 2 in NV), and delivering them to Tesla (Gigafactory 1 in CA).

They have been updating not only the form of the battery cells, but the entire pack and it's internal chemistry. They are getting away from Cobalt as being the majority component in the battery, and are now using a nickel based battery. Current rumour is that they will get into the mining biz to ensure their supply of raw material is secured. The whole thing about cobalt is how it's sourced; largely unethically and using slave labor. This is why the battery companies are trying their best to get away from it - and I'm with 'em on that!

Recently, Tesla bought a battery tech company named Maxwell Technologies Inc., a California-based company that specialises in ultra capacitors and batteries. There are rumours that this will enable Tesla to leapfrog into the next level of battery building, capacity and performance.

Meanwhile, Audi/Porsche/VW will be arguing with LG Chem until the cows come home about everything; pricing, cost to Audi to buy warranty replacements, to upgrades of the capacity (E-tron S). This affects us, the consumer, in the long run. I'd hate to own one of these out-of-warranty.

I think VW Group just couldn't or wouldn't get fully behind BEV's. Otherwise it would have made sense to hire a great team of battery experts and create their own in-house packs that could actually support Audi's line of 'Vorsprung durch Technik'.

There's a huge difference in the batteries format; individual battery cells in Tesla vs. battery pouches in the LG Chem battery pack and most importantly, their chemical makeup. In the newest batteries in the Model 3, they are using the 2170 cell, powering the Model 3 w/ just 2.8% Cobalt use in the battery pack. The Model 3 has 75% less Cobalt than VW's, and Tesla has decreased their Cobalt use by 60% between the Roadster and the Model 3, within approx 6 years.

They've reduced cobalt and increased nickel to become Nickel-Cobalt-Aluminum based, with the ratio being 8:1:1. Currently, LG Chem is only using the 8:1:1 cylindrical batteries in busses, vs. the NCM 622 pouch in EVs; 70% Nickel, 10% Cobalt and 20% Manganese until they can get to NCM 712 or the NCMA (Nickel-Cobalt-Maganese-Aluminum) pouches for EV cars.

The different motors are another unique item in the Tesla; they just refreshed the Model S & X to newer motors that enable more efficiency/range. Battery management is definitely important, but Audi have it wrong; they shouldn't be nerfing the battery to 80% capacity and telling the driver it's at '100%'. This is effectively cutting the range by enough of a margin to really make the Tesla shine - Model X now has 325 miles of range compared to the artificially capped range of 200 miles in the Audi e-tron.

I know this sounds like I prefer the Tesla, but I don't. I just really respect how far they've come and how efficient the cars are, and of course how easy it is to charge on the Supercharger network or at destination chargers. Until Electrify America expands over time, Tesla has the advantage here too.

I really want to get into an Audi EV, but until Audi gets a few more years under their belt in this tech, I think my next car is the S5 Sportback.

The biggest things that shy me away from being a full-on Tesla fan are the atrocious customer service, the run-around after placing the order, the crappy delivery process, and all of the defects that get overlooked during their version of QA. Oh, and the lack of parts availability if you are involved in an accident - months sitting in the body shop while you're still paying on the car note and driving a ****ty rental car.