When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
I know Tesla has changed the paradigm in the way people think about software updates, but it shouldn't change the way you shop for vehicles. The vehicle you purchased is the vehicle you purchased, if you're buying it and expecting it to get improvements after the purchase date, you're making a poor gambit.
Additionally, its important to understand legacy automakers are a long ways off from being as dynamic with software/hardware changes than Tesla is. Its hard to consider, but Tesla has actually been around for over a decade, they accumulated thousands of miles of driver data about battery and motor performance before they started doing significant software updates. I don't think legacy automakers really even collect or study user data like this to the extent Tesla does. And the other important thing to understand is Tesla, for the most part, is vertically integrated in all their tech. Everything about their vehicle was made and designed to work and communicate with that vehicle, making changes much more doable. Something like the e-tron is the result of parts aggregation, a lot of stuff was put together to make a great vehicle, but nothing was created by them or even for them. They spent a lot of time putting stuff in place to work a certain way, and when they got it working the way they wanted, the hit "save" and moved onto the next vehicle. Updating it means getting lots of other suppliers to figure out how to work together to try and make what seems like should be a minor change, and being a legacy automaker changes like that aren't going to come without spending a lot of time testing those changes on test tracks etc. For instance in this case, increasing battery capacity means altering the coolant system, which means they need to stress test if the coolant system can handle that, and figuring out what kind of draw that might create on other electronics in the vehicle, and adjusting those if needed, and all these parts are likely all from different suppliers, so making a change doesn't mean Audi goes in and reprograms it, it means they need someone else to tell them how or if whatever can be adjusted to what parameters etc. The time and money it takes to make even a minor change versus just prepping the next model year to have it in place doesn't pencil out for them.
Anyways, long winded rant, in summation, embrace the vehicle you have, e-tron is a fine vehicle, it just won't ever be the bleeding edge tech we're seeing from some other EVs on the market and coming to market.
Thanks for pointing out all the challenges that Audi faces by not controlling all the parts. I didn't purchase a Tesla this time around, because I didn't care for the interior of the Y or X. However, I do the like the Tesla model of continuous software improvement. If Tesla spends more time and money on their interiors and Audi doesn't make software improvements available to their prior model years or gasp...provide OTA updates, I would definitely buy a Tesla next time around. It would be a shame if Audi didn't make strides at competing with Tesla in the software department.
Last edited by PNW Etron; Aug 12, 2020 at 11:15 PM.
I know Tesla has changed the paradigm in the way people think about software updates, but it shouldn't change the way you shop for vehicles. The vehicle you purchased is the vehicle you purchased, if you're buying it and expecting it to get improvements after the purchase date, you're making a poor gambit.
Additionally, its important to understand legacy automakers are a long ways off from being as dynamic with software/hardware changes than Tesla is. Its hard to consider, but Tesla has actually been around for over a decade, they accumulated thousands of miles of driver data about battery and motor performance before they started doing significant software updates. I don't think legacy automakers really even collect or study user data like this to the extent Tesla does. And the other important thing to understand is Tesla, for the most part, is vertically integrated in all their tech. Everything about their vehicle was made and designed to work and communicate with that vehicle, making changes much more doable. Something like the e-tron is the result of parts aggregation, a lot of stuff was put together to make a great vehicle, but nothing was created by them or even for them. They spent a lot of time putting stuff in place to work a certain way, and when they got it working the way they wanted, the hit "save" and moved onto the next vehicle. Updating it means getting lots of other suppliers to figure out how to work together to try and make what seems like should be a minor change, and being a legacy automaker changes like that aren't going to come without spending a lot of time testing those changes on test tracks etc. For instance in this case, increasing battery capacity means altering the coolant system, which means they need to stress test if the coolant system can handle that, and figuring out what kind of draw that might create on other electronics in the vehicle, and adjusting those if needed, and all these parts are likely all from different suppliers, so making a change doesn't mean Audi goes in and reprograms it, it means they need someone else to tell them how or if whatever can be adjusted to what parameters etc. The time and money it takes to make even a minor change versus just prepping the next model year to have it in place doesn't pencil out for them.
Anyways, long winded rant, in summation, embrace the vehicle you have, e-tron is a fine vehicle, it just won't ever be the bleeding edge tech we're seeing from some other EVs on the market and coming to market.
What I have repeatedly said here is that I expect fixes, not anything new from Audi. Basic things, that I already paid for and are not working properly, like a backup camera that does not take all day to adjust exposure and is utterly useless at night, a nav system that can suggest charging stations other than a couple of random Nissan dealerships and so on.
Audi can do whatever they want, as far as software upgrades go, there just won’t be that much of a need for those updates if they keep screwing their core customer base and keep on making arrogant excuses.
Side note: why would more cooling be needed to charge the car a bit closer to 100%?
Side note: why would more cooling be needed to charge the car a bit closer to 100%?
I couldn't say for sure, improved cooling is what Audi press cited as the reason for the 2020/2021 models having the increased capacity, so that's why I referenced it.
But to purely speculate, the two things to remember about the portion of the battery kept in reserve; 1) its being done to "maintain" battery life, rather than battery use 2) its a little bit of a trick
So to start with 1) In some studies of EV battery degradation, temperature, rather than use or even high speed charging, has been shown to be the biggest contributing factor towards battery degradation (its why air cooled Nissan Leaf batteries fair so much worse over time than their liquid cooled counterparts), so better temperature management likely means better battery preservation. This leads to 2) me calling the battery reserve a bit of a trick. The main idea of keeping the battery in reserve, in addition to avoid vehicles sitting at 100% SOC, is that as the battery degrades, the cells in the portion of the battery that is set aside will be start to be utilized, so after 8 years, if your battery has degraded 8%, it will still APPEAR to be 100% because it will be replacing the dead cells with the ones in reserve. So if improved cooling means less degradation, it means less of the battery needs to be put in reserve.
Personally, I'd prefer higher range in a new car that degrades slowly over time (studies have also shown EV battery degradation doesn't happen nearly as rapidly as they initially suspected) than having a consistently reduced range over its lifetime, but this is Audi's 1st EV so its going to be a conservative start until they get an idea of battery performance (I believe early Tesla's software limited their batteries to avoid 100% as well) and I also suspect luxury vehicles like Audi rely quite a bit more on leasing than something like Tesla, so year over year consistency is a bit more key to them.
the cells in the portion of the battery that is set aside will be start to be utilized, so after 8 years, if your battery has degraded 8%, it will still APPEAR to be 100% because it will be replacing the dead cells with the ones in reserve. So if improved cooling means less degradation, it means less of the battery needs to be put in reserve.
It doesn't quite work that way. There are no "cells in reserve." All lithium ion batteries start to degrade from the moment they're made, whether they're used or not. Battery chemistry is "happiest" at between about 15-20% of charge at the low end and 70-80% of charge at the top end. So when you run your battery down to "0%," it's really not at 0%. Likewise, "100%" is not really 100%. So what happens over time is that a brand new battery may have a top capacity of 95 KWh but a degraded one may only have a top capacity of, say, 88 KWh. By limiting the amount of usable charge, Audi is helping to preserve the battery in two ways. One is to keep the battery from draining completely or charging to full 100% because degradation happens faster at both extremes. The other way is to limit the effectively usable power. If you can only use 83.6 kWh (original) or 86.5 kWh of the original 95 kWh capacity, then your battery degrading from 95 to 90 or even 88 keeps the range consistent over time. So instead of your maximum driving range gradually dropping all the time, it stays relatively constant over the useful lifetime of the battery.
Audi was overly conservative with their initial estimate of how much capacity to keep in reserve, and after getting enough real-time data figured they could relax it some on later models.
Perhaps in the future we will see automakers give people the option of choosing how they want their battery to work. Consistent range over the useful life of the battery (the conservative route) or letting one sacrifice longevity for maximum range that declines over time (also perhaps with a disclaimer that running the battery in that fashion would void the battery warranty or something).
Last edited by skaratso; Aug 13, 2020 at 03:29 PM.
This applies to propsective 2021 etron owners too....they might hesitate to purchase a 2021 etron if they know their software in their cars will stop getting upgrades. They only have to look at the 2019 owners to see their future.
Wake up Audi!
I'm sure that over time, competitive pressure will force all the legacy automakers to offer software upgrades to their vehicles. Some will wise up faster than others.
In the meantime, this is part of the reason I leased my e-tron instead of buying it. Because whatever is out when my lease is up will be more advanced not only software-wise, but also likely in terms of hardware (which is less easily upgraded). For example, over the next 10-15 years we're going to see rapid advancement in battery technology so leasing means I'm not "locked in" to last generation's technology for long periods of time. Once we reach the point at which no ICE cars are manufactured any more I may return to purchasing instead of leasing, but for now leasing makes more sense to me.
Thank you for this correction, very insightful! I was going off a half remembered article discussing this when the e-Tron first came out and obviously must have convoluted some ideas with my own assumptions.
Perhaps in the future we will see automakers give people the option of choosing how they want their battery to work. Consistent range over the useful life of the battery (the conservative route) or letting one sacrifice longevity for maximum range that declines over time (also perhaps with a disclaimer that running the battery in that fashion would void the battery warranty or something).
While this may be useful for some people, I really doubt this will happen. Given that the 8 year warranty on the battery is federally mandated, there is no way to void the warranty.
So, since I'm a nerd, I decided to theorycraft the E-tron's range increases over the next decade. Let's check back in 5 and 10 years and see how well I did!
Some comments:
Mid life "facelift" update includes new power electronics and larger battery capacity
Brand new model introduced after 8 years on a VAG dedicated BEV platform. Optimizes weight (moderately significant and increases mechanical efficiency) and space (majorly significant and allows for substantial increase in battery capacity).
Overall yearly range increase averages to 5.2% / year.
My bet, is that I underestimate the gains
Maybe I'm smoking crack, but we'll see how this goes.
Last edited by biff2bart; Aug 13, 2020 at 10:45 PM.
So, since I'm a nerd, I decided to theorycraft the E-tron's range increases over the next decade. Let's check back in 5 and 10 years and see how well I did!
Some comments:
Mid life "facelift" update includes new power electronics and larger battery capacity
Brand new model introduced after 8 years on a VAG dedicated BEV platform. Optimizes weight (moderately significant and increases mechanical efficiency) and space (majorly significant and allows for substantial increase in battery capacity).
Overall yearly range increase averages to 5.2% / year.
My bet, is that I underestimate the gains
Maybe I'm smoking crack, but we'll see how this goes.
Your graphic look WAY too real. It will be sucked into some other website and used as a point of reference. Great work. I think that you are conservative as well.
So, since I'm a nerd, I decided to theorycraft the E-tron's range increases over the next decade. Let's check back in 5 and 10 years and see how well I did!
Some comments:
Mid life "facelift" update includes new power electronics and larger battery capacity
Brand new model introduced after 8 years on a VAG dedicated BEV platform. Optimizes weight (moderately significant and increases mechanical efficiency) and space (majorly significant and allows for substantial increase in battery capacity).
Overall yearly range increase averages to 5.2% / year.
My bet, is that I underestimate the gains
Maybe I'm smoking crack, but we'll see how this goes.
Nice chart. Audi's biggest issue is the car is just outright heavy so unless they focus on reducing the weight of the vehicle throwing in a 110Kwh battery won't solve the range as you're just adding more weight upon an already heavy car. There has to be a tipping point where higher Kwh batteries are detrimental because they're actually so heavy that they make the car less efficient. It's going to be an interesting balancing act.
Even in 2029, Audi will be on a 125Kwh battery doing 286 miles vs the 2021 Lucid Air on a similar size battery doing 517 miles. LOL. Traditional automakers are dead in the water!
Audi Recreates Crazy-Looking Speed Record Breaker From 1935
Slideshow: Audi has recreated one of the wildest machines of the pre-war speed-record era, reviving a streamlined V16 racer that originally exceeded 200 mph in 1935.
