my thoughts on the format change and why I have always hated vB. LLAW!
03-20-2009, 08:09 AM
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my thoughts on the format change and why I have always hated vB. LLAW!
This is by no means the first time that people have complained about the Audiworld (Kawf) format. I have long dealt with my non-Audiworld car friends complaining about the kawf format. While I don't recall their complaints that much, many of them were used to the vB format, as many of them were VWVortex people.
Personally, I have long hated the vB format due to a few reasons:
White Space
When you are viewing a thread on vB, each post, even if it says nothing, takes up vertical space due to the left user box and the sig. If the users wrote 'BUMP', then I lost ~200-250 pixels. I am on a 24inch screen (1920x1200) which means, assuming I full screen AW, I can only see 3-4 posts per PAGE. PAGE. Seriously a waste of space.
Threading/Conversations
If I am reading a thread, and someone posts "yeah, that is awesome". I have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. So if you are in a thread that has a debate going on and both sides are going at it, I have no idea what side that user is on. I realize there is a quote button, but people don't use it as it isn't one click easy. The conversational aspect is gone. Also, when you can't see a thread tree like you can on Kawf, the logical progression of a tangent is lost. The importance of each post is no longer tied to the post it was in reference to as each post carries equal weight in the thread. The only attribute respected is time posted. Where kawf supports conversations within a thread itself, vB takes all posts in a thread and puts them in one pile, organized by time. All conversations destroyed. So while you CAN use the quote button, there is no way to follow the tangents that evolve within a thread at all aside from wading through pages and pages of short posts. I also realize you can change the display mode to 'threaded' but it is still not as good.
Thread overview
While this is tied to the above, I feel it is significant. Those of you that have white color jobs are familiar with the concept of an executive overview. The thread view of kawf is essentially that. I can view a thread in one glance and determine, with decent accuracy, if it is a thread I care to read. All too often, the opening title on a post does not accurately convey what direction the community eventually takes the conversation. If a thread takes off on kawf, you can see it easily in the forum view *** there are clearly lots of posts. On vB, you can determine this by the number next to the post title that is growing. But whereas on kawf, you can easily see the overview of post titles to determine WHERE the conversation is going, on vB I have no choice but to jump in and start r-e-a-d-i-n-g e-v-e-r-y s-i-n-g-l-e post to figure out what is going on. I get no overview, no summary, no easy way to determine what is happening on page 3, 4, ... 120.
Scaling of popular topics
There is a point where a popular thread on vB will get to 20, 30 pages. At that point in time, it is impossible to following along. I recall some vwvortex threads getting long and unless you are reading it from beginning to end, it is impossible to keep up with it and the tangents therein. It becomes useless.
TTT/Bump
I don't hate this concept. I don't think it is inherently BETTER or worse than the kawf track thread concept. But the vB way forces EVERYONE to deal with a bump, vs. just those tracking the thread. I prefer the kawf TT way. But I understand the other way.
Conclusion
The change has been made. I would have loved to have seen the effort put into migrating to vB (clearly over 1 year) spent improving kawf. But the reality is when you have a parent company with a product, you have little choice. I am not pretending to know the feelings of anyone in the AW corporate stable, but I am smart enough to realize that what is said in public and what one feels deep down are not always the same.
What baffles my mind is it COULD have been done. While I haven't seen under the hood of vB, I do know a decent amount about building web applications, dealing with databases, etc. If the AW team were supplied with decent vB tools, I don't see why, with a decent amount of effort and some frontend CSS fun, that vB couldn't be made to look like kawf. The threaded display mode makes it clear that it is possible. But that being said, who knows what the Internet Brand overlords think of such an idea, as they have a product to sell.
Personally, I used to be a staple on the A4 forum, but I long ago let that go and became a fixture on the LRQC. And I am not sure of the future here. Based on my participation in othe vB forums (none) I am sure I will leave here as well. The reality is the I was here to hang out, kill time, and be a part of the overall din. I didn't NEED to be here, I rarely was seeking particular information but rather a converastion with friends. vB does not support such forum usage styles. I have to delve into each isolated post and then wade through the entire thing to see what is going on. I don't have that kind of time.
Where we will be in relation to all of this in a few months remains to be see. As the webmaster of the ACCCC, we have had internal discussions about where we point our users from the chapter site, audichicago.org. Do we continue to use Audiworld? Do we follow one of the new, replacement forums? Do we finally put up our own kawf based forum? Time will tell, and there are clear pros and cons to each that we will weigh as time passes.
But the reality is that there has been a significant change to the way we interact as a group. For many of us, this new format is not acceptable and while I like AudiWorld and have enjoyed my time on the forums throughout the years, I owe them no allegiance nor do I feel that they have taken into consideration the views of their users when they made this change and thus, I don't care. If AW withers and dies, it will be very easy to point the finger as to the exact moment that happened.
I can only hope that the founders made off with some big cash that they still have as I feel this is the end of AudiWorld. Long live Audiworld.
Personally, I have long hated the vB format due to a few reasons:
White Space
When you are viewing a thread on vB, each post, even if it says nothing, takes up vertical space due to the left user box and the sig. If the users wrote 'BUMP', then I lost ~200-250 pixels. I am on a 24inch screen (1920x1200) which means, assuming I full screen AW, I can only see 3-4 posts per PAGE. PAGE. Seriously a waste of space.
Threading/Conversations
If I am reading a thread, and someone posts "yeah, that is awesome". I have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. So if you are in a thread that has a debate going on and both sides are going at it, I have no idea what side that user is on. I realize there is a quote button, but people don't use it as it isn't one click easy. The conversational aspect is gone. Also, when you can't see a thread tree like you can on Kawf, the logical progression of a tangent is lost. The importance of each post is no longer tied to the post it was in reference to as each post carries equal weight in the thread. The only attribute respected is time posted. Where kawf supports conversations within a thread itself, vB takes all posts in a thread and puts them in one pile, organized by time. All conversations destroyed. So while you CAN use the quote button, there is no way to follow the tangents that evolve within a thread at all aside from wading through pages and pages of short posts. I also realize you can change the display mode to 'threaded' but it is still not as good.
Thread overview
While this is tied to the above, I feel it is significant. Those of you that have white color jobs are familiar with the concept of an executive overview. The thread view of kawf is essentially that. I can view a thread in one glance and determine, with decent accuracy, if it is a thread I care to read. All too often, the opening title on a post does not accurately convey what direction the community eventually takes the conversation. If a thread takes off on kawf, you can see it easily in the forum view *** there are clearly lots of posts. On vB, you can determine this by the number next to the post title that is growing. But whereas on kawf, you can easily see the overview of post titles to determine WHERE the conversation is going, on vB I have no choice but to jump in and start r-e-a-d-i-n-g e-v-e-r-y s-i-n-g-l-e post to figure out what is going on. I get no overview, no summary, no easy way to determine what is happening on page 3, 4, ... 120.
Scaling of popular topics
There is a point where a popular thread on vB will get to 20, 30 pages. At that point in time, it is impossible to following along. I recall some vwvortex threads getting long and unless you are reading it from beginning to end, it is impossible to keep up with it and the tangents therein. It becomes useless.
TTT/Bump
I don't hate this concept. I don't think it is inherently BETTER or worse than the kawf track thread concept. But the vB way forces EVERYONE to deal with a bump, vs. just those tracking the thread. I prefer the kawf TT way. But I understand the other way.
Conclusion
The change has been made. I would have loved to have seen the effort put into migrating to vB (clearly over 1 year) spent improving kawf. But the reality is when you have a parent company with a product, you have little choice. I am not pretending to know the feelings of anyone in the AW corporate stable, but I am smart enough to realize that what is said in public and what one feels deep down are not always the same.
What baffles my mind is it COULD have been done. While I haven't seen under the hood of vB, I do know a decent amount about building web applications, dealing with databases, etc. If the AW team were supplied with decent vB tools, I don't see why, with a decent amount of effort and some frontend CSS fun, that vB couldn't be made to look like kawf. The threaded display mode makes it clear that it is possible. But that being said, who knows what the Internet Brand overlords think of such an idea, as they have a product to sell.
Personally, I used to be a staple on the A4 forum, but I long ago let that go and became a fixture on the LRQC. And I am not sure of the future here. Based on my participation in othe vB forums (none) I am sure I will leave here as well. The reality is the I was here to hang out, kill time, and be a part of the overall din. I didn't NEED to be here, I rarely was seeking particular information but rather a converastion with friends. vB does not support such forum usage styles. I have to delve into each isolated post and then wade through the entire thing to see what is going on. I don't have that kind of time.
Where we will be in relation to all of this in a few months remains to be see. As the webmaster of the ACCCC, we have had internal discussions about where we point our users from the chapter site, audichicago.org. Do we continue to use Audiworld? Do we follow one of the new, replacement forums? Do we finally put up our own kawf based forum? Time will tell, and there are clear pros and cons to each that we will weigh as time passes.
But the reality is that there has been a significant change to the way we interact as a group. For many of us, this new format is not acceptable and while I like AudiWorld and have enjoyed my time on the forums throughout the years, I owe them no allegiance nor do I feel that they have taken into consideration the views of their users when they made this change and thus, I don't care. If AW withers and dies, it will be very easy to point the finger as to the exact moment that happened.
I can only hope that the founders made off with some big cash that they still have as I feel this is the end of AudiWorld. Long live Audiworld.
Last edited by skabaru; 03-20-2009 at 08:13 AM.
03-20-2009, 09:18 AM
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personally I think that for technical information vB is a better format and for fun and social musing KAWF is better .... so, when you can't tell what the "Yeah that's awsome!!" post is referring to it doesn't matter because informationally "that's awesome" isn't really that much info.
03-20-2009, 09:22 AM
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personally I think that for technical information vB is a better format and for fun and social musing KAWF is better .... so, when you can't tell what the "Yeah that's awsome!!" post is referring to it doesn't matter because informationally "that's awesome" isn't really that much info.
03-20-2009, 01:08 PM
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on the forums I run peopele make posts with specific questions with titles like "Luke what tires shopuld I run for STS with my suspension and setup?"
I know thery want an answer from me and I have all he facts I answer in that post and move on ... never to look at it again unless it is bumped to the top for additional info.
the RE01r special is a great example ... there is a 20 something page about that tire with pricing and availablity and changes as supplies dwindled. If people from that site wanted info on that special it was xcontained in one post .... and did not get cycled off the front page for two weeks or take up the entire page
I know thery want an answer from me and I have all he facts I answer in that post and move on ... never to look at it again unless it is bumped to the top for additional info.
the RE01r special is a great example ... there is a 20 something page about that tire with pricing and availablity and changes as supplies dwindled. If people from that site wanted info on that special it was xcontained in one post .... and did not get cycled off the front page for two weeks or take up the entire page
03-20-2009, 02:02 PM
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BSK
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Okay this has been a going trend on AW and I would liek to make a comment on peoples attitudes READ!
Dieselino (Jeff)
A4 (B5 Platform) Discussion
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