Krisko

He said it's for DE's....how can any car be best in a category or classification? If by category you mean sedan there are FAR better sedan track cars than the B5 S4.

I used to drive a stage 2 S4 at Sebring. The car would hit 145 on the back straight and turn low 2:50s, it was a blast. In my 1995 M3 (while it was still a street car) I would hit about 130 on the back straight but lap Sebring in mid 2:30s. That's almost 20 seconds a lap faster. While RWD is at a disadvantage to quattro in some spots (corner exit, inclement weather), it enjoys a clear andvantage in others (throttle steering, better tire wear).

Alas he didn't ask which BMW is the best for the track, he asked which Audi would be. My guess would be a stage 3 B5 A4 that's been raped by a sawzall to lighten it up. Quattro of course only to handle all of that torque. A stock A4 would be fine with frontrak.

Krisko

...replaced blown turbos or trashed your rotors after ONE 20 minute track session? Have you ever driven a car the weighs less than 3000lbs on the track? How many Audis do you see as track cars compared to Mustangs, BMWs, Miatas. I'm not usually one to go with the 'herd' but I did in my choice of track car and I'm not looking back.

Geza

1987 Coupe GT

Pat-SoCal

For those of us who like the Audi brand and like to haul some ***, the B5 A4/S4 is a good candidate. Like any track car, there are many items which become replacement parts; brake components, fluids, axles, control arms, lots of tires, just to name a few. IMO, I'd attribute your trashed rotors to user error - sounds like poor pad selection or impropper cool down. I've had many hours of track time in the B5 S4 on stock and aftermarket brake kits and I've never cooked a set of rotors in a weekend much less one session (that includes my old avant on stock brakes). After four weekends, I had to replace my stoptech rotors and pads (see picture of pads and heat fissures) and trust me, they were abused very thoroughly.



<img src="http://images14.fotki.com/v222/photos/6/681510/2661834/DSC00293-vi.jpg">

As far as cooking turbos... well I have never come across a track junkie who exhibited surprise when his/her KO3's blew up on the front straight. Preparation is half the battle. An oil cooler and a power steering cooler are worth their weight in gold.

I'm also having trouble finding logic in the rest of your arguement regarding potentially suitable track cars. You suggest that our boy look into BMW's, Mustangs and Miatas? How much does your BMW weigh? I'd be willing to bet it's over 3k pounds. I've driven E36's and E46 M3's on the track and they are a great car, but not exactly light (the E46 I drove had been lightened and still tipped the scales at a hair under 3200lbs RACE weight... damn thing was 50/50 though). Mustangs weigh even more and let you know it! Miatas are light and cheap, but for taller guys like myself they're not an option and definitely not fast enough (or cool enough, sorry Steve :P ) unless they've been properly prepared.

The only reason I would suggest any of those other cars is for educational purposes only. The B5 S4 is in fact a great track car despite certain individuals experiences, but it's also very forgiving. Not as forgiving as an Evo or WRX, but it's still a turbocharged AWD platform. I would suggest a front engine, RWD car to start with, but that's just me - learned car control on the race track in a camaro (and got schooled by Steve S. in his E30 BMW).

Krisko

I linked it up to make it easy. I state that my S4 would see 145mph on the back straight at Sebring and my (then street car) '95 M3 would get to about 125mph at the same spot. But my M3's lap times were about 20 seconds faster. That solves the 'That's fine if you want to go slow' debate.

I roasted a set of rotors at Sebring which is probably the worst track in the nation for braking. I went to Stoptechs with much better results. Having said that, my M3 with stock brakes, cooling ducts, and track pads performs far better in the braking dept. than my S4 with Stoptechs did. Obviously I attribute that to weight moreso than design. Speaking of weight, my M3 weighs about 2600lbs with no interior and a cage. No composite body panels or major cutting required. I'd be interested in hearing who has the lightest B5 anything much less S4.

The only reason I recommended a bmw, mustang, or miata is because they are very popular as track cars and race cars. I normally don't like to follow the herd but in this case they know what they're talking about. There are tons of parts and expertise out there for those who want to track these cars. I'll give you this, an Audi is special at the track just because it's such a rarity.

Turbocharged cars aren't very track friendly. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. Then again anything is possible with the right budget, just ask 944 Cup racers.

If you want to get into a debate about Audis vs. ??? in the track car dept. you're barking up the wrong tree. I know better than to attempt that on an Audi board. My opinion is that an Audi is a superior touring car and a BMW is a superior track car (to other sedans anyway).<ul><li><a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/racing/msgs/39059.phtml">https://forums.audiworld.com/racing/msgs/39059.phtml</a</li></ul>

RENN 951

the Porsche 944!! Great track cars and they'll get you into PCA events too.

Pat-SoCal

What does your M3 run? I prepared judging by your pic poster? Let's compare that to my B5 S4 which weighs over 3k pounds race weight.

Buttonwillow Raceway, CA in June of '05 was the last event I ran which was also attended by the BMW CCA. My car was a few ponies down from its current state with a little less stick, only a cheesy roll bar and still had half an interior... but I'll still use this as an example:

I was running time trials in my car which is a qualifying format. My best time Saturday came in the late afternoon in not ideal conditions... 2:05.483

Here were the IP qualifying times from that morning:
1 97 Dan Davis_______2:10.302
2 50 Marc Ghafouri___2:11.008
3 07 John Kubat______2:11.503
4 170 Faisal Qaisi___2:11.944
5 149 Joe Elwell_____2:12.992
6 021 Peter Guagenti_2:13.686
7 26 Matt Shaw_______2:18.044

Sunday... I did a 2:05.907 in the first session with a passenger.

Sunday's IP qualifying times:
1 07 John Kubat________2:08.307
2 021 Peter Guagenti___2:12.277
3 26 Matt Shaw_________2:14.879
4 170 Faisal Qaisi_____2:11.463
5 149 Joe Elwell_______2:12.903
DQ 50 Marc Ghafouri____2:10.590

That should clear up some of the smoke screen you've been spreading around here.

BTW, I'd like to see pictures of the scale redout or setup sheets of your corner weights. 2600lb M3... I'm calling B.S.

Tomasz@Startup

once you start modifying there is no comparison. E36 and hardly E46 can match the S4. Even heavily penalized Champion S4s run better than E46 M3s.

Your 95 M3 is a nice car, but with similiar level of prep the S4 will run cirlces around it (or shall we call them rings). Now, the M3 will be cheaper, and much more comparable to an A4 (1.8T or 2.8 like STaSIS runs) not the S4.

So when we compare more apples to apples A4 versus the M3 I no longer think that maintenance is that different.

By classification I meant NASA or SCCA clases - just to again compare similiarly modified cars.

Throttle steering is possible with a well setup S4, I do it all the time. I can't speak to tire wear - I do not know.

A4 versus S4? A4 will be cheaper to buy and run, S4 will be faster overall. Again, how fast do you want to go?

Krisko

You are passionate about Audis and I can appreciate that. I'm passionate about racing but not so much about race cars. A race car is just a tool and I picked what I thought was the best tool for the job.

You're throwing lap times out there like it means something. I've never been to Buttonwillow and I don't know any of those drivers nor the level of prep of their cars. And TT is not like qualifying nor racing. In TT you're out there alone or with 2 other cars, in qualifying and racing you need to get by other cars which complicates things (BMW qualifying isn't like F1 or NASCAR, everybody is still on the track).

I wouldn't publish my setup sheets in public even if I were able to. My car weighs 3048 w/driver, I'm 200lbs, I have 200lbs of ballast in the car so it weighs 2648lbs. You're calling BS on me? The E36 M3 is well known as a track car, there's hundreds of them out there. Go do some research if you don't believe me.

You said your S4 weighs over 3000lbs....so is it 3025 or 3625lbs?

I'm just sharing my personal experience and the experience of friends who used to track Audis (one has an M3, another has a VW R32, a Porsche, a Miata, etc). In my opinion, the S4 is just too damned costly with maintenance and consummables (tires, brakes, gas). You live by the turbo but then die with the turbo...it sure is fun while it lasts. And the quattro system is predictable and fast in spots but it doesn't teach you very much about car control and weight transfer.

I haven't spread a 'smoke screen' here...just sharing an educated opinion. Again, you are very passionate about the brand and you defend it well.

Krisko

Those guys have the big bucks to gut a quattro car of weight and add biggg power. I loved to watch the S4s and RS6s go at it but I would certainly never own one for track use.

The quattros always got the early jump and then we have to see how the Toyos would hold up from the abuse the Audis dish out (heavy cars, front tires working all the time). And it helps just a tad that Champion had the best drivers money can buy, skill means a lot in a 50 minute race.

As far as level of prep, do you mean the cost to get an S4 reliable enough for brutal track use? How much would it cost to get an S4 ready for racing, $50,000? For that money I could get an E36 M3 that weighs 2400lbs with 400hp. And a turbocharged car will fail eventually at a track I don't care how well prepped it is.

As far as my personal experience racing against Audis, I've run one race against one Audi in my class. I won with lap times roughly 3 seconds quicker than the Audi...meaningless information anyway. Regardless, my car weighs 2600lbs and makes over 280hp and 265tq at the wheels. I don't see any Audi beating that at the club race level.