Brakes, Brakes, and more Brakes
09-27-2002, 09:48 AM
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Brakes, Brakes, and more Brakes
When ryoung <a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/racing/msgs/24194.phtml">poked fun</a> at me for thinking I had my brakes under control before driving roadamerica, I had no idea just how right he was.
To make a long story shorty, after completely destroying my brakes (pictures at the end <a href="http://ikami.com/pics/98-autox/index.cgi/roadamerica_9-22-02">here</a>), I've been looking in the usual places for replacements, and this is what I've come up with.
The two I'm seriously considering at this point are the AP Racing and ECS Tuning kits:
<a href="http://www.i-m-racing.com/stil6pis2pie1.html">AP Racing</a>
Pros: reasonably priced, six piston caliper, large pad area, nice rotor<b>(?)</b>, easy to change pads.
Cons: weird vendor, increased pedal travel due to more pistons<b>(?)</b>
<a href="http://www.ecstuning.com/00s4brakes2nd.htm">ECS Tuning Stage 3</a>
Pros: price, nice calipers despite being 4-pot, easy to change pads, easy to find parts
Cons: drilled-to-death rotor, says porsche all over them
Others I've looked at include:
<a href="http://www.stasisengineering.com/brakes.htm">Stasis Track Sport</a>
Pros: mmm, alcon. easy to change pads
Cons: Holy Price, batman! Recent unprofessionalism of resellers on forums
<a href="http://www.stoptech.com/bigbrakes/audi.htm">Stoptech 332mm kit</a>
Pros: large installed base (on forums anyway), reasonably priced
Cons: see above re: unprofessionalism, some reports of warped rotors, pain in the *** to change pads
<a href="http://hp.brembo.com/brandlist.asp?ECSShopperID=RV9LVNVH35C99PFFD03ALB3 RN9UJ9DC7&LngCode=ENG&sCurrency=USD&PrCatID=3&CatI D=15&CatMemID=245&PageNumber=1">Brembo</a>
Pros: Brembo<b>(?)</b>
Cons: Brembo<b>(?)</b>, same calipers as ECS tuning kit at 1.5x the cost<b>?</b>, backordered into oblivion, hp.brembo.com on a 386 with a 14.4k modem.
What am I not taking into consideration that I should? Who am I slighting because of personal bias? What do you guys think of the kits I've chosen? Should I bite the bullet and buy bigger wheels to fit bigger rotors? What, if anything, do I need to do about the rear? Tell me now!
<img src="http://ikami.com/pics/98-autox/galleries/roadamerica_9-22-02/medium/IMG_0700.JPG">
Picture of incredibly fast porsches thrown in to generate page views.
To make a long story shorty, after completely destroying my brakes (pictures at the end <a href="http://ikami.com/pics/98-autox/index.cgi/roadamerica_9-22-02">here</a>), I've been looking in the usual places for replacements, and this is what I've come up with.
The two I'm seriously considering at this point are the AP Racing and ECS Tuning kits:
<a href="http://www.i-m-racing.com/stil6pis2pie1.html">AP Racing</a>
Pros: reasonably priced, six piston caliper, large pad area, nice rotor<b>(?)</b>, easy to change pads.
Cons: weird vendor, increased pedal travel due to more pistons<b>(?)</b>
<a href="http://www.ecstuning.com/00s4brakes2nd.htm">ECS Tuning Stage 3</a>
Pros: price, nice calipers despite being 4-pot, easy to change pads, easy to find parts
Cons: drilled-to-death rotor, says porsche all over them
Others I've looked at include:
<a href="http://www.stasisengineering.com/brakes.htm">Stasis Track Sport</a>
Pros: mmm, alcon. easy to change pads
Cons: Holy Price, batman! Recent unprofessionalism of resellers on forums
<a href="http://www.stoptech.com/bigbrakes/audi.htm">Stoptech 332mm kit</a>
Pros: large installed base (on forums anyway), reasonably priced
Cons: see above re: unprofessionalism, some reports of warped rotors, pain in the *** to change pads
<a href="http://hp.brembo.com/brandlist.asp?ECSShopperID=RV9LVNVH35C99PFFD03ALB3 RN9UJ9DC7&LngCode=ENG&sCurrency=USD&PrCatID=3&CatI D=15&CatMemID=245&PageNumber=1">Brembo</a>
Pros: Brembo<b>(?)</b>
Cons: Brembo<b>(?)</b>, same calipers as ECS tuning kit at 1.5x the cost<b>?</b>, backordered into oblivion, hp.brembo.com on a 386 with a 14.4k modem.
What am I not taking into consideration that I should? Who am I slighting because of personal bias? What do you guys think of the kits I've chosen? Should I bite the bullet and buy bigger wheels to fit bigger rotors? What, if anything, do I need to do about the rear? Tell me now!
<img src="http://ikami.com/pics/98-autox/galleries/roadamerica_9-22-02/medium/IMG_0700.JPG">
Picture of incredibly fast porsches thrown in to generate page views.
09-27-2002, 10:42 AM
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Changing pads on the StopTechs
Just had the 332mm kit installed, and changed out the pads before my first track event. First time changing pads took me about 30 minutes, including jacking the car up, removing the wheels, and swapping in new (full thickness) pads. Probably will drop that down to 10 - 15 minutes after a couple repititions.
Oh, and no issues with brakes. They're awesome (though I can't compare them to anything but stock), as is StopTech customer service.
Oh, and no issues with brakes. They're awesome (though I can't compare them to anything but stock), as is StopTech customer service.
09-27-2002, 11:25 AM
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Choices....
Foregive me for being a little bit bias but here are my thoughts....
All of the choices you have listed will provide you better braking.
The STaSIS Street Sport kit is a more appropriate comparision to others you are comparing.
In regards to the recent unprofessionalism of the resellers on the forum. You have to consider the source and what is said. If you notice you don't see any posts from the actually companies. If I have overlooked them please feel free to point them out. Remember you can deal directly with company and don't have to deal with a reseller.
THe other items which I would compare. Brake hats, rotors, proper selection of pads and most of all will this kit be what you need. There is a price difference at all levels and you need to be able to evaluate if your selection will provide you all the braking characteristics you seek....flex levels, ease of pad changing, temperature of the hats, rotors, calipers, etc.
The bottom line is you won't go wrong with any of the choices. You may have more needs fulfilled with kit vs the other.
All of the choices you have listed will provide you better braking.
The STaSIS Street Sport kit is a more appropriate comparision to others you are comparing.
In regards to the recent unprofessionalism of the resellers on the forum. You have to consider the source and what is said. If you notice you don't see any posts from the actually companies. If I have overlooked them please feel free to point them out. Remember you can deal directly with company and don't have to deal with a reseller.
THe other items which I would compare. Brake hats, rotors, proper selection of pads and most of all will this kit be what you need. There is a price difference at all levels and you need to be able to evaluate if your selection will provide you all the braking characteristics you seek....flex levels, ease of pad changing, temperature of the hats, rotors, calipers, etc.
The bottom line is you won't go wrong with any of the choices. You may have more needs fulfilled with kit vs the other.
09-27-2002, 02:15 PM
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Re: Thoughts on AP
I have the 6-pot AP's so i'll give my own opinion of the pros and cons.
Pros:
1) Reasonably priced (get them through BRITS ($2400) as opposed to Stillen).
2) Lightweight caliper/rotor. I can't remember the exact weights but they are less than Brembo/Stoptech and probably Stasis street sports as well. 6 pots fit under stock AVUS wheels better than any other caliper.
3) 6 piston calipers that are appropriately sized for the A4/S4's master cylinder. No increased pedal stroke with my experience.
4) Slightly larger pad area (I believe) than most 4 pot calipers.
5) Changing pads is very easy. R/R 2 hex bolts that hold down a spring retainer clip.
Cons:
1) Pad choice. Not nearly as many pad choices as the other kits. This can be very frustrating, however, the few that are available are excellent, IMO.
2) Noisy. I have had noise issues from day 1. It's not enough for me to pull them off the car but when the brakes are heated up they will definitely talk.
3) Thinner rotor as opposed to Brembo/Stoptech kits. This may or may not be a con (weight savings vs. thicker rotor that will disipate heat faster).
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/260/ap3.jpg">
There has been much discussion regarding brake kits lately. IMO, all the kits available are good and the differences between them are probably not as large as most people think. I would choose a kit that fits into your price range and that will offer local customer support in case you need it. You'll really won't be dissapointed with any of the choices you listed.
Pros:
1) Reasonably priced (get them through BRITS ($2400) as opposed to Stillen).
2) Lightweight caliper/rotor. I can't remember the exact weights but they are less than Brembo/Stoptech and probably Stasis street sports as well. 6 pots fit under stock AVUS wheels better than any other caliper.
3) 6 piston calipers that are appropriately sized for the A4/S4's master cylinder. No increased pedal stroke with my experience.
4) Slightly larger pad area (I believe) than most 4 pot calipers.
5) Changing pads is very easy. R/R 2 hex bolts that hold down a spring retainer clip.
Cons:
1) Pad choice. Not nearly as many pad choices as the other kits. This can be very frustrating, however, the few that are available are excellent, IMO.
2) Noisy. I have had noise issues from day 1. It's not enough for me to pull them off the car but when the brakes are heated up they will definitely talk.
3) Thinner rotor as opposed to Brembo/Stoptech kits. This may or may not be a con (weight savings vs. thicker rotor that will disipate heat faster).
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/260/ap3.jpg">
There has been much discussion regarding brake kits lately. IMO, all the kits available are good and the differences between them are probably not as large as most people think. I would choose a kit that fits into your price range and that will offer local customer support in case you need it. You'll really won't be dissapointed with any of the choices you listed.
09-27-2002, 06:47 PM
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Confirming what others have said plus ...
.
a few other thoughts.
1. Don't worry about the ease of a pad change. With all, probably the toughest part of the job is jacking up the car, taking the wheels off, and putting the wheels back on.
2. A large pad area is much easier on the rotors. Even though you're dumping the same amount of heat into the rotor, the heat only moves thru the steel by conduction, which is relatively slow compared to the rate heat is being dumped in under the pad. In other words, the temperature spike under the pad is lower when the pad area is larger.
3. You might want to check the cost of the pads that are available for the various calipers; there's probably a wide spread.
4. If the caliper's pistons have dust seals, they probably won't survive on the track.
5. I'd trust drilled rotors only from Brembo. Otherwise, I'd go with slotted rotors.
6. Is the ECS Porsche caliper the only monobloc on your list? If so, it would probably be the stiffest and have the best pedal feel. Don't worry about the pedal feel of a 6-pot. All else being equal, it's a function of total piston area rather than number of pistons.
7. Service and support does have value. I only have personal experience with two, Stasis and Stoptech, and both have been excellent.
8. The rotors vary from 332 to 355mm. I'd give preference to the larger 355. As you can see, even my 355x32 Alcon's get hot enough to surface crack, which is why I'd stay away from drilled rotors.
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/17157/rotorcracks.jpg">
In the end, I'd probably go with either AP Racing or Stasis/Alcon; but all five are good set-ups.
BTW, what did you think that first time when you saw how fast you were going downhill into Turn 5?
a few other thoughts.
1. Don't worry about the ease of a pad change. With all, probably the toughest part of the job is jacking up the car, taking the wheels off, and putting the wheels back on.
2. A large pad area is much easier on the rotors. Even though you're dumping the same amount of heat into the rotor, the heat only moves thru the steel by conduction, which is relatively slow compared to the rate heat is being dumped in under the pad. In other words, the temperature spike under the pad is lower when the pad area is larger.
3. You might want to check the cost of the pads that are available for the various calipers; there's probably a wide spread.
4. If the caliper's pistons have dust seals, they probably won't survive on the track.
5. I'd trust drilled rotors only from Brembo. Otherwise, I'd go with slotted rotors.
6. Is the ECS Porsche caliper the only monobloc on your list? If so, it would probably be the stiffest and have the best pedal feel. Don't worry about the pedal feel of a 6-pot. All else being equal, it's a function of total piston area rather than number of pistons.
7. Service and support does have value. I only have personal experience with two, Stasis and Stoptech, and both have been excellent.
8. The rotors vary from 332 to 355mm. I'd give preference to the larger 355. As you can see, even my 355x32 Alcon's get hot enough to surface crack, which is why I'd stay away from drilled rotors.
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/17157/rotorcracks.jpg">
In the end, I'd probably go with either AP Racing or Stasis/Alcon; but all five are good set-ups.
BTW, what did you think that first time when you saw how fast you were going downhill into Turn 5?
09-27-2002, 07:03 PM
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Re: turn 5
Well, first time, not so bad, I took it easy. Second time, I got up to maybe about 100 and got on the brakes early enough that everything was alright.
Third time, I got up to 110+ and found I had pretty much no brakes. Probably a combination of fade and the relatively new pads not having been heat-cycled. That was the fun one.
Oh, and coming in after my first session to find smoke pouring from my drivers side wheelwell was fun; the nipple wasn't quite torked closed and was leaking the tiniest bit of fluid onto the caliper.
I lucked out on that one. I wish I would have gotten some pictures of it.
Third time, I got up to 110+ and found I had pretty much no brakes. Probably a combination of fade and the relatively new pads not having been heat-cycled. That was the fun one.
Oh, and coming in after my first session to find smoke pouring from my drivers side wheelwell was fun; the nipple wasn't quite torked closed and was leaking the tiniest bit of fluid onto the caliper.
I lucked out on that one. I wish I would have gotten some pictures of it.
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09-30-2002, 03:24 PM
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Re: I've appreciated your posts in the past...
I have a question on your #4. My understanding is that you acquired your 6-pot Alcons from Stasis with dust seals. Did your dust seals fail? I'm asking this because I'm considering the B-type Alcons from Stasis. Thank you.
