DE Safety. Out of control?
08-07-2005, 05:37 AM
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DE Safety. Out of control?
I have not been following boards much lately, but as I caught up, I see some horrendous incidents. Looks like three different fatal crashes ats DE's this year, plus 2 fatalities last year that I know of.
I stopped instructing because I personally felt that too many participants were lax about safety equipment with dangerous installations, as well as too many beginners showing up with high HP, modified cars, R tires, etc. Seems to me that it is only getting worse and worse while some instructors and organizers continue to tout the inhernet safety of the activity, encouraging n00bs to ignore the very real risks.
I wonder what the "DE's are safe" crowd has to say these days?
I stopped instructing because I personally felt that too many participants were lax about safety equipment with dangerous installations, as well as too many beginners showing up with high HP, modified cars, R tires, etc. Seems to me that it is only getting worse and worse while some instructors and organizers continue to tout the inhernet safety of the activity, encouraging n00bs to ignore the very real risks.
I wonder what the "DE's are safe" crowd has to say these days?
08-07-2005, 03:38 PM
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It's a really tough call, DEs can generally be very safe.
Ultimately it's up to the drivers to make the events safe. I guess we can always blame something on the organizers or the instructors but the real blame lies with the driver.
At the end of the day, motorsport is inherently unsafe. I've been planning to buy a HANS but been putting it off. Jimmie Johnson had a side impact at Indy today. He suffered a light concussion but that's it. He thinks the HANS saved his neck...that's good enough for me. I'm calling my race parts guy tomorrow.
At the end of the day, motorsport is inherently unsafe. I've been planning to buy a HANS but been putting it off. Jimmie Johnson had a side impact at Indy today. He suffered a light concussion but that's it. He thinks the HANS saved his neck...that's good enough for me. I'm calling my race parts guy tomorrow.
08-07-2005, 04:01 PM
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I've been to a few events and from my perspective....
It depends on the organizers and the drivers.
My 1st event was put on by the SoCal Audi club at buttonwillow, they were VERY strict with what you could and couln't do, I think having an instructor with you at all times makes a HUGE difference.
The other events I've done were by small organizations, thier drivers were basicly just let loose on the track by themselves, at Fontana I was twice "dive bombed" (passed) right at the entrance of a corner, of course, I wasn't expecting it, I turned in and there's some foolio pulling a full race pass on me, needless to say I was surprised and pissed, then later in the same session another guy did it to me!!
The problem with the small organizations is they don't have the man power to watch everybody and inforce the rules, they also don't have any way of "qualifying" people as to which class they run in or if they know how to handle a car on the track.
Now, 99% of the people I've run with are very courteous and good drivers, but it's the 1% you have to watch out for!
My 1st event was put on by the SoCal Audi club at buttonwillow, they were VERY strict with what you could and couln't do, I think having an instructor with you at all times makes a HUGE difference.
The other events I've done were by small organizations, thier drivers were basicly just let loose on the track by themselves, at Fontana I was twice "dive bombed" (passed) right at the entrance of a corner, of course, I wasn't expecting it, I turned in and there's some foolio pulling a full race pass on me, needless to say I was surprised and pissed, then later in the same session another guy did it to me!!
The problem with the small organizations is they don't have the man power to watch everybody and inforce the rules, they also don't have any way of "qualifying" people as to which class they run in or if they know how to handle a car on the track.
Now, 99% of the people I've run with are very courteous and good drivers, but it's the 1% you have to watch out for!
08-07-2005, 06:54 PM
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Good point, more instructors might make a difference.
If I remember, the guy that died had just been signed off and was running his first session alone. If the instructor was with him, he likely wouldn't have gotten out of control. That's something the instructor will have to live with for the rest of his life.
08-07-2005, 07:57 PM
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I wish that everyone who doesn't use a HANS would have witnessed my wreck.
The fact that I'm still alive is attributed to the fact that I was wearing a HANS device, I'm sure of it, and so are the people that thought I might have been dead when they got to me.
08-08-2005, 06:41 AM
#7
First, you need to find real stats. It could just be that the internet spreads bad news better.
Without the stats, you don't know if things are any worse.
If the stats show increasing incidents, then the solution is simple. Groups have to make themselves safer, or face outside forces (legal and insurance) doing it for them. I would not rule out the possibility of insurance companies putting ALL DE participants into a high-risk category.
One thing is for certain. Cars are faster than ever, and it's easier for a noob to get his/her hands on a very fast car than ever before. It's also easier for that noob to find his/her way to a track event.
The solution would be:
(i) strict enforcement of existing rules (e.g. NO "R" compounds in lower run groups), controlled passing, no sign-offs for lower run groups.
(ii) speed restrictions based on run group. Keep lower groups under 100MPH, and higher groups under 125MPH (track-dependent, of course).
(iii) additional safety requirements based on potential speed. A 500HP Mustang (or maybe any car capable of over 160MPH) should have a roll-cage and a full harness.
Maybe SCCA or car clubs should come up with a DE spec for all cars.
If the stats show increasing incidents, then the solution is simple. Groups have to make themselves safer, or face outside forces (legal and insurance) doing it for them. I would not rule out the possibility of insurance companies putting ALL DE participants into a high-risk category.
One thing is for certain. Cars are faster than ever, and it's easier for a noob to get his/her hands on a very fast car than ever before. It's also easier for that noob to find his/her way to a track event.
The solution would be:
(i) strict enforcement of existing rules (e.g. NO "R" compounds in lower run groups), controlled passing, no sign-offs for lower run groups.
(ii) speed restrictions based on run group. Keep lower groups under 100MPH, and higher groups under 125MPH (track-dependent, of course).
(iii) additional safety requirements based on potential speed. A 500HP Mustang (or maybe any car capable of over 160MPH) should have a roll-cage and a full harness.
Maybe SCCA or car clubs should come up with a DE spec for all cars.
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08-08-2005, 07:32 AM
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IMHO you have sort of hit it...
originally it was people just taking street cars out to drive around the track but more and more it's unlimited mod. ultra high-performance cars which have less safety equipment than a Spec Miata.
NASA has taken a step in the wrong direction (IMHO) with this "time trials" thing because it creates competition inside an HPDE (while that HPDE is still going on) without all the basic safety equipment rules. Think they meant for it to be a sort of semi-competitive way to work on your driving while shooting for a good lap time but immediately people are building special-purpose cars to "race" in an HPDE. Sorry Pat, this applies to you but I simply don't get it. None of those guys have racing licenses or experience and to send them out without even a driving suit is insane.
We used to use HPDE 4 sessions to test the Civic for enduros and we pulled the car out of a couple of sessions due to cars crashing in front of us trying to stay ahead. These idiots were 100% red mist and they were in street cars!
Then I rented the Caterham at CA Speedway and some of that group were a bunch of loonies and at the end of the weekend one of them was hurt (but nobody knows how badly since they were wisked away and the car flat-bedded out pretty quietly).
Why someone thinks their modded 400+hp car can't crash, roll over and burst into flames but that someone in a Spec Racer Ford needs a 3-layer suit, HANS and full harness, fire system and roll cage is beyond me.
Also, there were two fatalities at Buttonwillow last year from two guys in a lunchtime drive-around flipping an Austin Healy and literally landing on their heads...how can anyone drive a convertible around a race track without a roll cage?
I still don't quite get the whole track-day thing...I've seen so many balled-up cars that I don't understand why people don't save the "mod" money and just go racing. Yeah there are still some extremely limited track-day environments which give people a chance to get some driver education in their own cars and these are great but more and more, the clubs are excuses for people to "race" with no rules and no more training than they had to get their driver's licenses. You see it all the time on the forums...people post "I went racing" when they mean they were at a track-day. Think that's a safe mentality?
This was what I captured at one NASA event a couple of years ago from one day of HPDE:
<img src="http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/NASA%20racer/NASAs%20stuff/wrecks.jpg">
I mean HPDE is really what has made NASA and generally it runs pretty smoothly but once you get people thinking they're "racing", it can be a total mess.
NASA has taken a step in the wrong direction (IMHO) with this "time trials" thing because it creates competition inside an HPDE (while that HPDE is still going on) without all the basic safety equipment rules. Think they meant for it to be a sort of semi-competitive way to work on your driving while shooting for a good lap time but immediately people are building special-purpose cars to "race" in an HPDE. Sorry Pat, this applies to you but I simply don't get it. None of those guys have racing licenses or experience and to send them out without even a driving suit is insane.
We used to use HPDE 4 sessions to test the Civic for enduros and we pulled the car out of a couple of sessions due to cars crashing in front of us trying to stay ahead. These idiots were 100% red mist and they were in street cars!
Then I rented the Caterham at CA Speedway and some of that group were a bunch of loonies and at the end of the weekend one of them was hurt (but nobody knows how badly since they were wisked away and the car flat-bedded out pretty quietly).
Why someone thinks their modded 400+hp car can't crash, roll over and burst into flames but that someone in a Spec Racer Ford needs a 3-layer suit, HANS and full harness, fire system and roll cage is beyond me.
Also, there were two fatalities at Buttonwillow last year from two guys in a lunchtime drive-around flipping an Austin Healy and literally landing on their heads...how can anyone drive a convertible around a race track without a roll cage?
I still don't quite get the whole track-day thing...I've seen so many balled-up cars that I don't understand why people don't save the "mod" money and just go racing. Yeah there are still some extremely limited track-day environments which give people a chance to get some driver education in their own cars and these are great but more and more, the clubs are excuses for people to "race" with no rules and no more training than they had to get their driver's licenses. You see it all the time on the forums...people post "I went racing" when they mean they were at a track-day. Think that's a safe mentality?
This was what I captured at one NASA event a couple of years ago from one day of HPDE:
<img src="http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/NASA%20racer/NASAs%20stuff/wrecks.jpg">
I mean HPDE is really what has made NASA and generally it runs pretty smoothly but once you get people thinking they're "racing", it can be a total mess.
08-08-2005, 07:48 AM
#9
I can offer some explanation for why people do DE and don't just race.
I'm lucky if I can get two days free each year to be at a track. I am looking for the equivalent of solo track time (no other cars) and a well-run HPDE should simulate that. I should never be "racing" with anyone.
I don't have the time or budget to race. I could probably replace my track days with a highly-structured training session (Skip Barber), but that's very limiting in geography and dates, and expensive.
In the end, I'll get my thrills in the lower run groups, running street tires, and avoid the urge to go faster and to build a track car for HPDEs.
When you rule out the single-car crashes (people killing themselves due to over-exuberance, idiocy or just bad luck) you end up with a fairly safe environment.
I don't have the time or budget to race. I could probably replace my track days with a highly-structured training session (Skip Barber), but that's very limiting in geography and dates, and expensive.
In the end, I'll get my thrills in the lower run groups, running street tires, and avoid the urge to go faster and to build a track car for HPDEs.
When you rule out the single-car crashes (people killing themselves due to over-exuberance, idiocy or just bad luck) you end up with a fairly safe environment.
08-08-2005, 07:49 AM
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Interesting perspective on time trials and hpde4.
I've always thought of time trials to be harmless but you make excellent points. They are timed so that automatically encourages the drivers to push the limit. Why wouldn't they need full safety equipment and to prove they have the experience to drive their cars at the limit? And I was completely unaware that time trials occur during HPDE sessions...that's a lawsuit waiting to happen. I wonder if the insurance companies underwriting NASA events are aware of this.
Just last week I turned a guy onto NASA events and he soaked up all the info he could on the internet. He came back to me this morning asking for the fastest way he could become a solo student. I asked him why in the world would he prefer driving alone instead of with an experienced instructor and his reply was basically "So I can feel free to drive like I want to". THAT gets people killed. I'm glad this thread was started, I'm going to share some of the info with this guy.
Just last week I turned a guy onto NASA events and he soaked up all the info he could on the internet. He came back to me this morning asking for the fastest way he could become a solo student. I asked him why in the world would he prefer driving alone instead of with an experienced instructor and his reply was basically "So I can feel free to drive like I want to". THAT gets people killed. I'm glad this thread was started, I'm going to share some of the info with this guy.