DE Safety. Out of control?
08-08-2005, 03:23 PM
#21
AudiWorld Super User
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 11,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pete, I agree with you. Although your points are based on limited/outsider experience.
RE: HPDE 4 and Time Trial
I think you should objectively look at HPDE 4/Time Trial instead of judging based on opinion from outside the box. Open Passing HPDE groups are needed for many reasons, but some of the obvious are:
- There is a demand for a group in which experienced drivers don't have to wait to be pointed by to make a pass, can run aggressively in traffic while learning traffic management, enjoy the relaxed setting of HPDE all while being timed as a method of driver and car improvement.
- A way for racers to shake down a new/freshly repaired race car without having to deal with passing rules or slow traffic.
- A way for racers on a budget to still have fun with their car while not having to spend a rediculous amount of money in the process.
As for Time Trial, for most it is a bridge to racing and a necessary one at that. The guys who run in Time Trial don't do it for the plastic medal, but it is a nice piece of recognition for those putting up some fast lap times. Half of the time trailers hold or have held racing licenses. Some of the time trialers have raced in Rolex and ALMS races. The National Director races USTCC, and Super Unlimited. The chief instructor is an Eibach test driver and everytime he opens his mouth I learn something.
Having sat through most of the download meetings in HPDE 4 this year, I can honestly say that safety comes FIRST. The very first event of the year, California Speedway, was a testiment to this; many times were participants cautioned and made aware of the dangers that are present when running street cars or cars with limited safety equipment at the speeds which they are ran in group 4. Nobody is trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes or denying the fact that driving an automobile at the limits is dangerous - it is! To my knowledge, SoCal NASA HPDE 4/TT has a perfect record with regard to incidents involving car contact in 2005. There have been several "almost" incidents due to the fact that racers in race cars think HPDE 4 is a venue of competition... they come on the track to shake down a race car and tend to be way too agressive for the nature of the group. That was the case this last weekend at Infineon with NorCal NASA. BTW, a NorCal NASA instructor backed his boxter into a tire barrier exiting T8.
I think the majority of your lecture should be focused at those instructors and racers who abuse the existence of HPDE 4 as their personal playground. Since 2001 when I ran in the very first open passing session of NASA's HPDE 4, I have witnessed only the occasional off and the rare discourteous racer who doesn't feel the need to check his/her mirrors. Everything else has been exceptional.
BTW, at my estimate, roughly a third of the cars in Time Trial could Cert. for an IT class with SCCA. I'm missing a window net and a few odds and ins before my car would cert. And the only way I'm climbing my *** into my fire suit this summer is if Ron Fellows himself calls me and asks me to co-drive that C6R for him
BTW, you should think about running TTU... Bernheim's porsche should make some pretty stiff competition for your sports racer! The next event is Big Willow and I think Steve was running 1:26's last time in his Rolex car.
I think you should objectively look at HPDE 4/Time Trial instead of judging based on opinion from outside the box. Open Passing HPDE groups are needed for many reasons, but some of the obvious are:
- There is a demand for a group in which experienced drivers don't have to wait to be pointed by to make a pass, can run aggressively in traffic while learning traffic management, enjoy the relaxed setting of HPDE all while being timed as a method of driver and car improvement.
- A way for racers to shake down a new/freshly repaired race car without having to deal with passing rules or slow traffic.
- A way for racers on a budget to still have fun with their car while not having to spend a rediculous amount of money in the process.
As for Time Trial, for most it is a bridge to racing and a necessary one at that. The guys who run in Time Trial don't do it for the plastic medal, but it is a nice piece of recognition for those putting up some fast lap times. Half of the time trailers hold or have held racing licenses. Some of the time trialers have raced in Rolex and ALMS races. The National Director races USTCC, and Super Unlimited. The chief instructor is an Eibach test driver and everytime he opens his mouth I learn something.
Having sat through most of the download meetings in HPDE 4 this year, I can honestly say that safety comes FIRST. The very first event of the year, California Speedway, was a testiment to this; many times were participants cautioned and made aware of the dangers that are present when running street cars or cars with limited safety equipment at the speeds which they are ran in group 4. Nobody is trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes or denying the fact that driving an automobile at the limits is dangerous - it is! To my knowledge, SoCal NASA HPDE 4/TT has a perfect record with regard to incidents involving car contact in 2005. There have been several "almost" incidents due to the fact that racers in race cars think HPDE 4 is a venue of competition... they come on the track to shake down a race car and tend to be way too agressive for the nature of the group. That was the case this last weekend at Infineon with NorCal NASA. BTW, a NorCal NASA instructor backed his boxter into a tire barrier exiting T8.
I think the majority of your lecture should be focused at those instructors and racers who abuse the existence of HPDE 4 as their personal playground. Since 2001 when I ran in the very first open passing session of NASA's HPDE 4, I have witnessed only the occasional off and the rare discourteous racer who doesn't feel the need to check his/her mirrors. Everything else has been exceptional.
BTW, at my estimate, roughly a third of the cars in Time Trial could Cert. for an IT class with SCCA. I'm missing a window net and a few odds and ins before my car would cert. And the only way I'm climbing my *** into my fire suit this summer is if Ron Fellows himself calls me and asks me to co-drive that C6R for him
BTW, you should think about running TTU... Bernheim's porsche should make some pretty stiff competition for your sports racer! The next event is Big Willow and I think Steve was running 1:26's last time in his Rolex car.
08-08-2005, 03:31 PM
#22
Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,646
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But you didn't address the lack of safety equipment.
If you guys are going 10/10ths out there, why run without the safety requirements that racers need?
Your car seems better built than most in time trials yet you refuse to wear a fire suit? A firesuit isn't a cure-all but it will buy you another 15 seconds or so to get out of a burning car.
Your car seems better built than most in time trials yet you refuse to wear a fire suit? A firesuit isn't a cure-all but it will buy you another 15 seconds or so to get out of a burning car.
08-08-2005, 03:42 PM
#23
AudiWorld Super User
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 11,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But... there's nothing to address.
Lots of guys wear fire suits in HPDE 4. Good for them. I'll wear mine if I feel I'm driving far enough on the ragged edge to require it. I drive 9/10ths, you don't need a fire suit until you start driving in the fifth dimension.
08-08-2005, 04:27 PM
#24
AudiWorld Uber User
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 40,289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
point by point...>
First of all, NASA TT is a new experimental race group and there's no "perspective" or "experience" with it, come back in 10 years and let me know how successful it was.
<i>- There is a demand for a group in which experienced drivers don't have to wait to be pointed by to make a pass, can run aggressively in traffic while learning traffic management, enjoy the relaxed setting of HPDE all while being timed as a method of driver and car improvement.</i>
Agree that you need to be able to pass on a race track, totally disagree that "aggressive passing" has any place in a track-day and "traffic management"...start at the back of a race of equal cars and by the time you can consistently run at the front, you know everything you need to know about "traffic management". Most people learn by making mistakes and what are the consequences of learning "traffic management" in expensive street cars with little or no safety equipment vs. some beater race car with all the equipment and relatively limited speed?
The point of licensed racing with cars which run to a particular rulebook is that every participant has an EQUAL SHARE of the risk. HPDE 4 doesn't have that, it has a range of drivers from tentative guys just going out on their own in bone-stock street cars to guys with Grand-Am cup cars. This is a tragedy waiting to happen and the fact it doesn't happen every weekend doesn't make it any less of an uncontrolled risk. Not everyone in HPDE 4 is sharing (or perceiving) the risk equally. The guy in the S2000 wearing just a helmet doing HPDE4 doesn't have the same protection as Bernheim in his Grand Am car and they're on the track for different purposes and that's not safe, not remotely safe.
What you need is some sort of parity of driver skill and car closing speed and some sort of requirement to have enough safety equipment to reasonably protect drivers of particularly fast cars. You are putting novice drivers (which constitues the majority of HPDE4 participants) in with guys who are "racing". My experience with sharing my cars with pro drivers is that they tend not to give a **** about anyone else on the track or the car they're driving so to hear that you have these guys in TT mixed up with HPDE 4 drivers makes me think even less of it. Have you watched a Grand Am race lately? Didja see the one from Barber Motorsports Park? Didja see Bernheim piling into a slower car at the PCA enduro at CA Speedway?
Oh look, there's a pro driver in Pete and Mike's car...Taz Harvey, SpeedTouring hero racer!!! Great traffic management, who needs a fire suit?
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/4061/wreck1.jpg">
<i>As for Time Trial, for most it is a bridge to racing and a necessary one at that.</i>
Why? I don't agree with this at all, if you want to race, go race. There are all sorts of ways into racing and the TT format hasn't existed before and yet there were crops and crops of good drivers being produced from karts, racing schools and provisional licenses. There's a reason why driver's are going more or less straight from karts into pro formula cars these days and the HPDE school of "racing" is part of that. You don't get to be a good racing driver by driving "within your limits"...racing competitively has everything to do with NOT driving within "limits" so if you want to be a successful racing driver in a highly competitive field, you picked the worst way to go about it.
<i> I can honestly say that safety comes FIRST</i>
If you believed that, you wouldn't turn a wheel in your car without the exact same safety equipment you'd wear in a race. You don't even wear a driving suit. It's ****ty and uncomfortable for all of us, do you ACTUALLY believe you're immune from crashing and bursting into flames because you only drive 9/10ths? How did Ben Keaton die in his CGT when he was only driving 7/10ths? **** JUST HAPPENS and nothing you believe will change that reality.
You and the other people in TT are essentially free to pick and choose their safety equipment based on no particular criteria yet there are no real limits on the HP or speed of the car or the disparity of speeds in "traffic".
<i>Since 2001 when I ran in the very first open passing session of NASA's HPDE 4, I have witnessed only the occasional off and the rare discourteous racer who doesn't feel the need to check his/her mirrors. Everything else has been exceptional. </i>
Since 2000 when we used HPDE 4 to shake down our race car (they had HPDE in Nor Cal before 2001) I saw numerous incidents of cars leaving the track due to dumb mistakes or inexperience and our own mechanic wrote off his Civic in the wet at Sears (in HPDE 4) and the ONLY reason he wasn't killed was he had FULL race equipment.
<img src="http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/nasa+racer/nasas+stuff/Mikes+Civic+smooshed.jpg">
Oops! Mike made a simple driving mistake all by himself while trying to get hius racing license and rolled his car twice...thank god he had a window net or he woulda lost his arm, thank god he had a cage or he woulda been crushed, thank god he had a fire suit and fire system because the fuel leaking all over him could have burst into flames. Guess if he'd had 400+ HP and Quattro he wouldn't have crashed eh? that's some perfect record:
<img src="http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/NASA%20racer/NASAs%20stuff/searspointcopy.jpg">
There's no such thing as a "perfect safety" anything.
and I saw a driver get injured at CA Speedway in a TR-6 WHILE TAKING A PASSENGER FOR A RIDE back in 2003 in NASA HPDE 4 (same weekend three of the cars were so badly damaged in that event they had to be flat-bedded out) so I think your perception of what level of "safety" this group has is also limited.
This upside down Contour SVT doesn't say "perfect safety" to me:
<img src="http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/NASA%20racer/NASAs%20stuff/wrecks.jpg">
I also worked at a race track where they held PCA and Pantera Club and Ferrari club events and in 1983 personally witnessed a driver in the Pantera club event die in front of my eyes as his chest filled with blood after impacting the wall at the entry to turn 1 at probably 150mph sideways. I bet your car can do 150 on the straights at Willow. That year 1 driver died in all the racing at that track (Rolf Stommelen) and one driver died in the 4 driving events they had that year.
The idea that "it doesn't happen all the time" is irrelevant and the idea that "it hasn't happened much" doesn't matter if you are the dead guy or the dead guy's friends.
<i>- A way for racers on a budget to still have fun with their car while not having to spend a rediculous amount of money in the process.</i>
Hahahahaha....riiiiiight. I can't believe you even went there. C'mon man, do you wanna compare what we spent racing the Civic vs. what you spend on your S4? You spend about as much on tires as we do for the Radical! We used to get 9 hours out of our R-compound tires on the Civic and I built that car for less than you probably paid for your shocks. How much did your S4 cost total to build and what does it cost every weekend to operate, I'd like to know how you did that for less than a Spec Miata ;-P
Anyone who is encouraging you to go faster without taking EVERY precaution has little regard for YOUR safety and is lacking in perspective and/or experience with the all to frequent tragedy of the persuit of speed. Your own attitude is the "pick and choose what's safe" approach and that's exactly why sanctioning bodies have rules and requirements because ultimately most people don't make usually make the best decisions for their own safety (and even less so for the safety of those around them). The further away from "safe track day learning environment" and the closer to "wheel to wheel racing" track-days become, the more the risks and precautions have to simply merge...it's common sense.
The fact is that more drivers are being killed in track-days right now than in SCCA and/or NASA race events and if enough people die, the activity is killed-off due to insurance costs (SCCA Pro Rally for example).
<i>I think the majority of your lecture should be focused at those instructors and racers who abuse the existence of HPDE 4 as their personal playground.</i>
Yeah it's someone else's fault and problem, nothing could happen to you. It's funny how Mike is super safety conscious after his crash...I guess some people have to experience it themselves because they can't learn from others?
I'll lecture and pontificate on this subject at any time and any place and to any extent I want because I can document 100% of my experience (including 81 hours of actual racing time in the last 5 years and they had HPDE at every one of those weekends which I either observed, instructed or participated in - until someone who will remain nameless drove me into the side of the hill at Sears Point and I realized these guys were ****ing up my race weekends heh) in and around racing (signed log books, result sheets, photos, newspaper and magazine articles) going back to 1978. I also have a 30% win to start ratio since I started in cars in 1982 (which gives me perspective on competitive racing that guys who can't produce any result sheets lack).
It's a verifyable perspective which doesn't depend on taking the claims of my experience on faith. Additionally I'm just a tad tired of people I know dying in cars in track days this year so I'd rather you didn't so if it takes typing 1000 words on the dangers of the sport, so be it. Friends don't bull**** each other and make up stories to impress each other while being oblivious to some fundamental flaws in the mental attitude of the driver in question (can't happen to me, isn't that dangerous, I'm more than prepared etc).
I didn't happen to convince Ben that he really wanted to race (he had the money, the time and the passion for it) and to just enjoy his CGT on the road and now his daughter doesn't have a father but hey, he's dead so must have been an idiot or something because only dumb people get killed at track-days right? See here's the thing...knowing it's dangerous does exactly NOTHING for you WHATEVER unless you do something about it.
<img src="http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/nasa+racer/nasas+stuff/110071-fae1.jpg">
<i>BTW, you should think about running TTU... Bernheim's porsche should make some pretty stiff competition for your sports racer! The next event is Big Willow and I think Steve was running 1:26's last time in his Rolex car.</i>
We have raced Bernheim before, He ran his turbo and Hugh Plumb ran his 996 Cup car last october and I don't see why they won't be back this October...that was a good race which we lead until our alternator failed (Buttonwillow suits us becasue our car only does 130 on it's best day with 150hp). As it turned out, we couldn't have beaten them because they only needed one fuel stop but there was an epic battle with the Porsches and Ryan driving Pag's Ferrari (which never went as fast before or since with Pag in it heh) I haven't seen him run his Rolex car at NASA events, he's always had his turbo but maybe it was Plum's cup car being there that made them bring out their big guns. That race was wheel-to-wheel for about 1:15 until the pit stops began, don't need TT events thanks.
You can see how close it was by the lap times:
Us: 1:54:749
Bernheim/Dement: 1:55.211
Escallette/Plum: 1:55:530
Flaherty/Pag: 1:56.086
I expect a similar race in October and we're going to have to risk running exactly half the race on one tank of gas (which has a 50/50 chance of us running out) but it'll be exciting.
The only reason I bought and built the Radical to be the way it is is to run enduros, I have little interest in doing anything else with it. It's as much fun as I can imagine racing that thing for 3 hours in the pitch black with 30 totally disparate cars (who I know for sure are there to race and mix it up) despite being stupidly risky...but I take EVERY precaution I POSSIBLY can short of not doing it and I have done something you don't know if you will ever do...I made it past 40 and some of my contemporaries in racing in the early to mid 80s didnt. Odds are that car will get written off in a race one of those nights so I make sure I don't get in it without every bit of protection I and the car can carry...which happens to be what the rules require except I have a HANS in addition to the required arm restraints, suit, shoes, nomex underwear, etc. If I wanted to sprint race, I'd sprint race it in CSR which might happen after we decide what to do next year. A completely different motor development program might be in the works.
<img src="http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/nasa+racer/more+1004+buttonwillow/DSC_0065_sav.jpg">
<img src="http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/nasa+racer/more+1004+buttonwillow/dsc_0054_sav.jpg">
<i>- There is a demand for a group in which experienced drivers don't have to wait to be pointed by to make a pass, can run aggressively in traffic while learning traffic management, enjoy the relaxed setting of HPDE all while being timed as a method of driver and car improvement.</i>
Agree that you need to be able to pass on a race track, totally disagree that "aggressive passing" has any place in a track-day and "traffic management"...start at the back of a race of equal cars and by the time you can consistently run at the front, you know everything you need to know about "traffic management". Most people learn by making mistakes and what are the consequences of learning "traffic management" in expensive street cars with little or no safety equipment vs. some beater race car with all the equipment and relatively limited speed?
The point of licensed racing with cars which run to a particular rulebook is that every participant has an EQUAL SHARE of the risk. HPDE 4 doesn't have that, it has a range of drivers from tentative guys just going out on their own in bone-stock street cars to guys with Grand-Am cup cars. This is a tragedy waiting to happen and the fact it doesn't happen every weekend doesn't make it any less of an uncontrolled risk. Not everyone in HPDE 4 is sharing (or perceiving) the risk equally. The guy in the S2000 wearing just a helmet doing HPDE4 doesn't have the same protection as Bernheim in his Grand Am car and they're on the track for different purposes and that's not safe, not remotely safe.
What you need is some sort of parity of driver skill and car closing speed and some sort of requirement to have enough safety equipment to reasonably protect drivers of particularly fast cars. You are putting novice drivers (which constitues the majority of HPDE4 participants) in with guys who are "racing". My experience with sharing my cars with pro drivers is that they tend not to give a **** about anyone else on the track or the car they're driving so to hear that you have these guys in TT mixed up with HPDE 4 drivers makes me think even less of it. Have you watched a Grand Am race lately? Didja see the one from Barber Motorsports Park? Didja see Bernheim piling into a slower car at the PCA enduro at CA Speedway?
Oh look, there's a pro driver in Pete and Mike's car...Taz Harvey, SpeedTouring hero racer!!! Great traffic management, who needs a fire suit?
<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/4061/wreck1.jpg">
<i>As for Time Trial, for most it is a bridge to racing and a necessary one at that.</i>
Why? I don't agree with this at all, if you want to race, go race. There are all sorts of ways into racing and the TT format hasn't existed before and yet there were crops and crops of good drivers being produced from karts, racing schools and provisional licenses. There's a reason why driver's are going more or less straight from karts into pro formula cars these days and the HPDE school of "racing" is part of that. You don't get to be a good racing driver by driving "within your limits"...racing competitively has everything to do with NOT driving within "limits" so if you want to be a successful racing driver in a highly competitive field, you picked the worst way to go about it.
<i> I can honestly say that safety comes FIRST</i>
If you believed that, you wouldn't turn a wheel in your car without the exact same safety equipment you'd wear in a race. You don't even wear a driving suit. It's ****ty and uncomfortable for all of us, do you ACTUALLY believe you're immune from crashing and bursting into flames because you only drive 9/10ths? How did Ben Keaton die in his CGT when he was only driving 7/10ths? **** JUST HAPPENS and nothing you believe will change that reality.
You and the other people in TT are essentially free to pick and choose their safety equipment based on no particular criteria yet there are no real limits on the HP or speed of the car or the disparity of speeds in "traffic".
<i>Since 2001 when I ran in the very first open passing session of NASA's HPDE 4, I have witnessed only the occasional off and the rare discourteous racer who doesn't feel the need to check his/her mirrors. Everything else has been exceptional. </i>
Since 2000 when we used HPDE 4 to shake down our race car (they had HPDE in Nor Cal before 2001) I saw numerous incidents of cars leaving the track due to dumb mistakes or inexperience and our own mechanic wrote off his Civic in the wet at Sears (in HPDE 4) and the ONLY reason he wasn't killed was he had FULL race equipment.
<img src="http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/nasa+racer/nasas+stuff/Mikes+Civic+smooshed.jpg">
Oops! Mike made a simple driving mistake all by himself while trying to get hius racing license and rolled his car twice...thank god he had a window net or he woulda lost his arm, thank god he had a cage or he woulda been crushed, thank god he had a fire suit and fire system because the fuel leaking all over him could have burst into flames. Guess if he'd had 400+ HP and Quattro he wouldn't have crashed eh? that's some perfect record:
<img src="http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/NASA%20racer/NASAs%20stuff/searspointcopy.jpg">
There's no such thing as a "perfect safety" anything.
and I saw a driver get injured at CA Speedway in a TR-6 WHILE TAKING A PASSENGER FOR A RIDE back in 2003 in NASA HPDE 4 (same weekend three of the cars were so badly damaged in that event they had to be flat-bedded out) so I think your perception of what level of "safety" this group has is also limited.
This upside down Contour SVT doesn't say "perfect safety" to me:
<img src="http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/NASA%20racer/NASAs%20stuff/wrecks.jpg">
I also worked at a race track where they held PCA and Pantera Club and Ferrari club events and in 1983 personally witnessed a driver in the Pantera club event die in front of my eyes as his chest filled with blood after impacting the wall at the entry to turn 1 at probably 150mph sideways. I bet your car can do 150 on the straights at Willow. That year 1 driver died in all the racing at that track (Rolf Stommelen) and one driver died in the 4 driving events they had that year.
The idea that "it doesn't happen all the time" is irrelevant and the idea that "it hasn't happened much" doesn't matter if you are the dead guy or the dead guy's friends.
<i>- A way for racers on a budget to still have fun with their car while not having to spend a rediculous amount of money in the process.</i>
Hahahahaha....riiiiiight. I can't believe you even went there. C'mon man, do you wanna compare what we spent racing the Civic vs. what you spend on your S4? You spend about as much on tires as we do for the Radical! We used to get 9 hours out of our R-compound tires on the Civic and I built that car for less than you probably paid for your shocks. How much did your S4 cost total to build and what does it cost every weekend to operate, I'd like to know how you did that for less than a Spec Miata ;-P
Anyone who is encouraging you to go faster without taking EVERY precaution has little regard for YOUR safety and is lacking in perspective and/or experience with the all to frequent tragedy of the persuit of speed. Your own attitude is the "pick and choose what's safe" approach and that's exactly why sanctioning bodies have rules and requirements because ultimately most people don't make usually make the best decisions for their own safety (and even less so for the safety of those around them). The further away from "safe track day learning environment" and the closer to "wheel to wheel racing" track-days become, the more the risks and precautions have to simply merge...it's common sense.
The fact is that more drivers are being killed in track-days right now than in SCCA and/or NASA race events and if enough people die, the activity is killed-off due to insurance costs (SCCA Pro Rally for example).
<i>I think the majority of your lecture should be focused at those instructors and racers who abuse the existence of HPDE 4 as their personal playground.</i>
Yeah it's someone else's fault and problem, nothing could happen to you. It's funny how Mike is super safety conscious after his crash...I guess some people have to experience it themselves because they can't learn from others?
I'll lecture and pontificate on this subject at any time and any place and to any extent I want because I can document 100% of my experience (including 81 hours of actual racing time in the last 5 years and they had HPDE at every one of those weekends which I either observed, instructed or participated in - until someone who will remain nameless drove me into the side of the hill at Sears Point and I realized these guys were ****ing up my race weekends heh) in and around racing (signed log books, result sheets, photos, newspaper and magazine articles) going back to 1978. I also have a 30% win to start ratio since I started in cars in 1982 (which gives me perspective on competitive racing that guys who can't produce any result sheets lack).
It's a verifyable perspective which doesn't depend on taking the claims of my experience on faith. Additionally I'm just a tad tired of people I know dying in cars in track days this year so I'd rather you didn't so if it takes typing 1000 words on the dangers of the sport, so be it. Friends don't bull**** each other and make up stories to impress each other while being oblivious to some fundamental flaws in the mental attitude of the driver in question (can't happen to me, isn't that dangerous, I'm more than prepared etc).
I didn't happen to convince Ben that he really wanted to race (he had the money, the time and the passion for it) and to just enjoy his CGT on the road and now his daughter doesn't have a father but hey, he's dead so must have been an idiot or something because only dumb people get killed at track-days right? See here's the thing...knowing it's dangerous does exactly NOTHING for you WHATEVER unless you do something about it.
<img src="http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/nasa+racer/nasas+stuff/110071-fae1.jpg">
<i>BTW, you should think about running TTU... Bernheim's porsche should make some pretty stiff competition for your sports racer! The next event is Big Willow and I think Steve was running 1:26's last time in his Rolex car.</i>
We have raced Bernheim before, He ran his turbo and Hugh Plumb ran his 996 Cup car last october and I don't see why they won't be back this October...that was a good race which we lead until our alternator failed (Buttonwillow suits us becasue our car only does 130 on it's best day with 150hp). As it turned out, we couldn't have beaten them because they only needed one fuel stop but there was an epic battle with the Porsches and Ryan driving Pag's Ferrari (which never went as fast before or since with Pag in it heh) I haven't seen him run his Rolex car at NASA events, he's always had his turbo but maybe it was Plum's cup car being there that made them bring out their big guns. That race was wheel-to-wheel for about 1:15 until the pit stops began, don't need TT events thanks.
You can see how close it was by the lap times:
Us: 1:54:749
Bernheim/Dement: 1:55.211
Escallette/Plum: 1:55:530
Flaherty/Pag: 1:56.086
I expect a similar race in October and we're going to have to risk running exactly half the race on one tank of gas (which has a 50/50 chance of us running out) but it'll be exciting.
The only reason I bought and built the Radical to be the way it is is to run enduros, I have little interest in doing anything else with it. It's as much fun as I can imagine racing that thing for 3 hours in the pitch black with 30 totally disparate cars (who I know for sure are there to race and mix it up) despite being stupidly risky...but I take EVERY precaution I POSSIBLY can short of not doing it and I have done something you don't know if you will ever do...I made it past 40 and some of my contemporaries in racing in the early to mid 80s didnt. Odds are that car will get written off in a race one of those nights so I make sure I don't get in it without every bit of protection I and the car can carry...which happens to be what the rules require except I have a HANS in addition to the required arm restraints, suit, shoes, nomex underwear, etc. If I wanted to sprint race, I'd sprint race it in CSR which might happen after we decide what to do next year. A completely different motor development program might be in the works.
<img src="http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/nasa+racer/more+1004+buttonwillow/DSC_0065_sav.jpg">
<img src="http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/nasa+racer/more+1004+buttonwillow/dsc_0054_sav.jpg">
08-08-2005, 09:21 PM
#25
AudiWorld Super User
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 11,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for your concern...
I think I might be wearing my fire suit the next time out.
Just to clear up a few things:
The first NASA open passing HPDE group was ran in July of '01 at Buttonwillow as an "experiment"... it was a great success. The Open-Track contingent of NASA pushed for it they haven't looked back since.
Time Trial was an "experiment" last year. This year it is getting some kinks worked out and I would expect/hope that we'll be seeing dedicated Time Trial run groups in the near future. This last weekend at Infineon had 40 TT'ers plus HPDE drivers plus instructors in the HPDE 4 run group. What a mess... it needs to be weeded out.
The growth of HPDE events will facilitate the growth of Time Trials not only with NASA, but in all sanctioning bodies (if you can call speedventures and the like a sanctioning body). It's a simple economic exercise at this point *place redundant resume speech here*. NASA sets the standard of safety for HPDE and Time Trial. Is it void of chuckle heads driving fast street cars outside their ability? Of course not. Is it as dangerous as driving over the edge of adhesion in a rattle trap of a race car with a crazy bastard right behind you who wants to take up the same piece of real estate in his race car that you currently occupy in yours? Absolutely not, no matter how many words are typed/written to negate the truth. There is a reason more safety equipment is required in a race car. Why don't you use your database to tally up the total number of race cars wrecked vs. the total number of HPDE cars wrecked and get back to me on your findings.
I chose to run in Time Trial this year to develop a car I would like to race in Super Unlimited next year. FYI, building a race car piece by piece while trying to make 10 events in a season is a big undertaking. Maybe I could have taken the funds and stroked a check for a pre-built race car... I take pride in the development process and am more knowledgable and prepared behind the wheel because of it. I work in NYC and my car/tools/truck/trailer/shop/house/tracks/friends to help at the track are in CA. You do the math.
*afterthough*
The best way to learn traffic management isn't baptism by fire as you suggest...
"...start at the back of a race of equal cars and by the time you can consistently run at the front, you know everything you need to know about "traffic management"."
Traffic management is learned by introducing it slowly so that drivers who's spacial orrientation and awareness are still developing can get used to the idea of overtaking a slower car as well as being overtaken by a faster car, all while driving the car. When I was at skippy they preached this to no end. HPDE 4, a group which expressly prohibits contact, is the perfect platform to teach this.
Just to clear up a few things:
The first NASA open passing HPDE group was ran in July of '01 at Buttonwillow as an "experiment"... it was a great success. The Open-Track contingent of NASA pushed for it they haven't looked back since.
Time Trial was an "experiment" last year. This year it is getting some kinks worked out and I would expect/hope that we'll be seeing dedicated Time Trial run groups in the near future. This last weekend at Infineon had 40 TT'ers plus HPDE drivers plus instructors in the HPDE 4 run group. What a mess... it needs to be weeded out.
The growth of HPDE events will facilitate the growth of Time Trials not only with NASA, but in all sanctioning bodies (if you can call speedventures and the like a sanctioning body). It's a simple economic exercise at this point *place redundant resume speech here*. NASA sets the standard of safety for HPDE and Time Trial. Is it void of chuckle heads driving fast street cars outside their ability? Of course not. Is it as dangerous as driving over the edge of adhesion in a rattle trap of a race car with a crazy bastard right behind you who wants to take up the same piece of real estate in his race car that you currently occupy in yours? Absolutely not, no matter how many words are typed/written to negate the truth. There is a reason more safety equipment is required in a race car. Why don't you use your database to tally up the total number of race cars wrecked vs. the total number of HPDE cars wrecked and get back to me on your findings.
I chose to run in Time Trial this year to develop a car I would like to race in Super Unlimited next year. FYI, building a race car piece by piece while trying to make 10 events in a season is a big undertaking. Maybe I could have taken the funds and stroked a check for a pre-built race car... I take pride in the development process and am more knowledgable and prepared behind the wheel because of it. I work in NYC and my car/tools/truck/trailer/shop/house/tracks/friends to help at the track are in CA. You do the math.
*afterthough*
The best way to learn traffic management isn't baptism by fire as you suggest...
"...start at the back of a race of equal cars and by the time you can consistently run at the front, you know everything you need to know about "traffic management"."
Traffic management is learned by introducing it slowly so that drivers who's spacial orrientation and awareness are still developing can get used to the idea of overtaking a slower car as well as being overtaken by a faster car, all while driving the car. When I was at skippy they preached this to no end. HPDE 4, a group which expressly prohibits contact, is the perfect platform to teach this.
08-08-2005, 09:35 PM
#26
AudiWorld Super User
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 7,148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pete, I was almost with you there. Untill you made a remark that racing is safe.
Do you believe that racing with full safety gear (like you do), is safer than what Pat is doing? I agree that both are dangerous... I am just not sure if i would agree that racing is less so. And I would NOT agree that racing is safe.
08-09-2005, 06:12 AM
#27
I understand the concept of personal responsibility and risk taking, but it's not that simple.
There are a couple of areas where the risk an individual takes knowingly has an inevitable effect on others.
1. Injuries and deaths (even if the victims knew the risks) can lead to the end of HPDEs. Survivor's families will bring lawsuits. Insurance companies will step in. Legislators will feel the need to "fix" a situation. HPDEs are at risk as they evolve into a black market racing series. The good will be taken out with the bad.
2. A mixture of on-track attitudes will create risk. If a 44 year old father of 3 is on the track trying to have some fun (me), but he's grouped with a 24 year old looking to create a personal highlight reel, then the 44 year old is facing risk well beyond his expectations.
As NASA Racer points out, the continual loosening of HPDE rules, and the growth of enthusiasts building monster street cars, is creating a completely unregulated racing series. It's kind of a re-birth of racing (which is good), but we have already been down that road, and we know that safety requirements will be necessary.
The outcome is inevitable. If HPDE's don't self-govern, then the whole genre will be shut down. Maybe that's what we need to get us all into dedicated, safe race cars.
Personally, I find myself questioning whether I will do an HPDE again based on the pursuasive arguments made here.
1. Injuries and deaths (even if the victims knew the risks) can lead to the end of HPDEs. Survivor's families will bring lawsuits. Insurance companies will step in. Legislators will feel the need to "fix" a situation. HPDEs are at risk as they evolve into a black market racing series. The good will be taken out with the bad.
2. A mixture of on-track attitudes will create risk. If a 44 year old father of 3 is on the track trying to have some fun (me), but he's grouped with a 24 year old looking to create a personal highlight reel, then the 44 year old is facing risk well beyond his expectations.
As NASA Racer points out, the continual loosening of HPDE rules, and the growth of enthusiasts building monster street cars, is creating a completely unregulated racing series. It's kind of a re-birth of racing (which is good), but we have already been down that road, and we know that safety requirements will be necessary.
The outcome is inevitable. If HPDE's don't self-govern, then the whole genre will be shut down. Maybe that's what we need to get us all into dedicated, safe race cars.
Personally, I find myself questioning whether I will do an HPDE again based on the pursuasive arguments made here.
08-09-2005, 07:51 AM
#28
AudiWorld Uber User
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 40,289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hmmm...no, if I implied racing was "safe" that was certainly not the message...
But trying to get the fastest lap time in a street car is less safe than racing something like a Spec Miata...cars with 125hp have pretty limited speed envelopes which keep the impact forces down to levels generally controllable with the available safety equipment.
If you wratchet that up to 400+ hp and decrease the lap time by say 20-30% the impact forces AND risk goes up to where if and when there is an accident, the driver will be subjected to much higher forces than the Spec Miata example and he would need MORE safety equipment to even have a hope of surviving.
I'm saying that nothing on any track is "safe" and one should prepare appropriately. For most folks, part of the management of risk involves a disposable car that it's understood may not survive the weekend.
If you wratchet that up to 400+ hp and decrease the lap time by say 20-30% the impact forces AND risk goes up to where if and when there is an accident, the driver will be subjected to much higher forces than the Spec Miata example and he would need MORE safety equipment to even have a hope of surviving.
I'm saying that nothing on any track is "safe" and one should prepare appropriately. For most folks, part of the management of risk involves a disposable car that it's understood may not survive the weekend.
08-09-2005, 08:02 AM
#29
AudiWorld Uber User
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 40,289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
this was half of what I was saying...>
<i>This year it is getting some kinks worked out and I would expect/hope that we'll be seeing dedicated Time Trial run groups in the near future. This last weekend at Infineon had 40 TT'ers plus HPDE drivers plus instructors in the HPDE 4 run group. What a mess... it needs to be weeded out.</i>
That was exactly my point...TT in and of itself is a race group and IMHO it should be treated as one not mixed in with track-day guys who don't want to compete but I'm adding that once it's a race group, it needs the same safety equipment as any other race group because...it's essentially going to be people racing each other.
<i>Traffic management is learned by introducing it slowly so that drivers who's spacial orrientation and awareness are still developing can get used to the idea of overtaking a slower car as well as being overtaken by a faster car, all while driving the car. When I was at skippy they preached this to no end. HPDE 4, a group which expressly prohibits contact, is the perfect platform to teach this.</i>
Hehehehe this is where Fletcher would say "son you have no idea what your talking about", but I have more respect for your intelligence, enthusiasm and involvement in racing and NASA and leave it at we disagree on this point and we'll discuss it again after you've been racing successfully in a class of equal cars for a few years and we have a more equal perspective on it. Michael (Chi-Hwa) ran DE's up the wazoo and now that he's in a race car, his lack of actual race-passing experience is his biggest handicap and somehow Mike D and I managed to muddle through for decades without balling up cars and yet managing to win races hmm (Mike's a shifter-kart champion and raced IT sedans for years and also ditched his NASA instructors license). The moment I got to NASA, it was demolition derby and drivers we encountered had little proficiency or abiliities in traffic or when passing and IMHO that's due to the HPDE training they had. When we run the enduros, I can tell car for car who had training within the HPDE/PCA/track day development and who came to it via some sort of kart-race training.
And:
<i>I chose to run in Time Trial this year to develop a car I would like to race in Super Unlimited next year. FYI, building a race car piece by piece while trying to make 10 events in a season is a big undertaking. Maybe I could have taken the funds and stroked a check for a pre-built race car... I take pride in the development process and am more knowledgable and prepared behind the wheel because of it. I work in NYC and my car/tools/truck/trailer/shop/house/tracks/friends to help at the track are in CA. You do the math.</i>
Yeah, I respect the time, effort and money you've put into this it's probably FREAKISHLY expensive and doesn't support the idea TT is somehow an inexpensive class. You are clubbing those guys like baby seals while driving "9/10ths" or less and have AMS behind you...that's what 40 year old guys who only race for fun occasionally do, not guys who want to progress into more serious racing. Right off the bat you are developing an SU car to run against street cars and have driven the cost to compete up into astronomical levels for most competitors. Not exactly the "bridge" for beginners, sounds more like regular racing to me and that's what happens with racing...it becomes more and more serious and expensive until the performance of the cars far exceeds the training/protection of the drivers and the sanctioning body steps in and has to enforce new rules and requirements to manage it and though you may not realize it, you are a catalist for the beginning of this process which hopefully will split TT into a completely different group than HPDE.
Incidentally <i>Maybe I could have taken the funds and stroked a check for a pre-built race car... I take pride in the development process</i> A pre-built race car is a bolted together box of parts that doesn't work right until someone makes it work right.
<i>Is it as dangerous as driving over the edge of adhesion in a rattle trap of a race car with a crazy bastard right behind you who wants to take up the same piece of real estate in his race car that you currently occupy in yours? Absolutely not,</i>
But that's what racing is and you protect yourself accordingly, people who are now "racing" street cars without protection are taking a bigger risk and not even realizing it but if I made you think twice and wear a fire suit and put a net on your car, that's all I really want to do. This isn't about agreeing or "right or wrong", it's about being as open to the risks as possible and managing them. You clearly have the attidue that "it's really safe" and that's not true at all and the recent fatalities in DE's bear that out.
That was exactly my point...TT in and of itself is a race group and IMHO it should be treated as one not mixed in with track-day guys who don't want to compete but I'm adding that once it's a race group, it needs the same safety equipment as any other race group because...it's essentially going to be people racing each other.
<i>Traffic management is learned by introducing it slowly so that drivers who's spacial orrientation and awareness are still developing can get used to the idea of overtaking a slower car as well as being overtaken by a faster car, all while driving the car. When I was at skippy they preached this to no end. HPDE 4, a group which expressly prohibits contact, is the perfect platform to teach this.</i>
Hehehehe this is where Fletcher would say "son you have no idea what your talking about", but I have more respect for your intelligence, enthusiasm and involvement in racing and NASA and leave it at we disagree on this point and we'll discuss it again after you've been racing successfully in a class of equal cars for a few years and we have a more equal perspective on it. Michael (Chi-Hwa) ran DE's up the wazoo and now that he's in a race car, his lack of actual race-passing experience is his biggest handicap and somehow Mike D and I managed to muddle through for decades without balling up cars and yet managing to win races hmm (Mike's a shifter-kart champion and raced IT sedans for years and also ditched his NASA instructors license). The moment I got to NASA, it was demolition derby and drivers we encountered had little proficiency or abiliities in traffic or when passing and IMHO that's due to the HPDE training they had. When we run the enduros, I can tell car for car who had training within the HPDE/PCA/track day development and who came to it via some sort of kart-race training.
And:
<i>I chose to run in Time Trial this year to develop a car I would like to race in Super Unlimited next year. FYI, building a race car piece by piece while trying to make 10 events in a season is a big undertaking. Maybe I could have taken the funds and stroked a check for a pre-built race car... I take pride in the development process and am more knowledgable and prepared behind the wheel because of it. I work in NYC and my car/tools/truck/trailer/shop/house/tracks/friends to help at the track are in CA. You do the math.</i>
Yeah, I respect the time, effort and money you've put into this it's probably FREAKISHLY expensive and doesn't support the idea TT is somehow an inexpensive class. You are clubbing those guys like baby seals while driving "9/10ths" or less and have AMS behind you...that's what 40 year old guys who only race for fun occasionally do, not guys who want to progress into more serious racing. Right off the bat you are developing an SU car to run against street cars and have driven the cost to compete up into astronomical levels for most competitors. Not exactly the "bridge" for beginners, sounds more like regular racing to me and that's what happens with racing...it becomes more and more serious and expensive until the performance of the cars far exceeds the training/protection of the drivers and the sanctioning body steps in and has to enforce new rules and requirements to manage it and though you may not realize it, you are a catalist for the beginning of this process which hopefully will split TT into a completely different group than HPDE.
Incidentally <i>Maybe I could have taken the funds and stroked a check for a pre-built race car... I take pride in the development process</i> A pre-built race car is a bolted together box of parts that doesn't work right until someone makes it work right.
<i>Is it as dangerous as driving over the edge of adhesion in a rattle trap of a race car with a crazy bastard right behind you who wants to take up the same piece of real estate in his race car that you currently occupy in yours? Absolutely not,</i>
But that's what racing is and you protect yourself accordingly, people who are now "racing" street cars without protection are taking a bigger risk and not even realizing it but if I made you think twice and wear a fire suit and put a net on your car, that's all I really want to do. This isn't about agreeing or "right or wrong", it's about being as open to the risks as possible and managing them. You clearly have the attidue that "it's really safe" and that's not true at all and the recent fatalities in DE's bear that out.