Silver Streakin'

asked over and over again to participants with their answers.

It either exists or it doesn't.

which is it?

That's at least one of his points. And it's a good one, imo. Otherwise, he's correct: it's your opinion - and I don't think he (nor myself) are judging you yet on it, we just want to know if "it" exists or not.

My assumption: the only question I think you asked is: How many accidents do you see at DEs per day?

O.W. Kenobi

Silver Streakin' (below) is correct - I'm just trying to determine whether my opinion is up against a scientific survey or just another person's opinion. If the former, then hell, you may convince me to change my mind. If the latter, we're just going to butt heads and likely not change our opinions one bit.

Mark Dalen

Even if the ONLY thing I asked was 'how many accidents do you see per DE day?' what is wrong with that.

I did, in fact, ask that question of a number of people. As I recall it was around 20 people all with ~50+ DE days in varied DE groups - varied both in terms of club and geography. No, this is not an academic study - it was rather informal.

I am more than willing to admit there is room for pretty substantial error and I adjusted my statements to allow for such errors.

So I will ask, do you think that 1 accident per day is a reasonable average? Or is it 1/2 or 1/4 or far less? Pick a number that this group would consider reasonable, and I think I can demonstrate that DE's carry far greater accident risks than street driving. The numbers are significant.

Answer the question about average number of accidents per DE day, and I will share the data for all to judge.

Mark Dalen

I am trying to get some concensus of average number of accidents per DE day from this group. It is certianly not 5 per day, nor is it one for every 10 days of DE. I think it is about 1 per day, and people I know from different areas provided similar numbers. What do YOU think it is. As I said, I will share the data after that point is established as it is pointless to have you argue after the fact that there are only 1 accidents per 10,000 DE days or some such.

Answer that question and I will proceed. Otherwise I will keep it to myself and you can go on with your opinions as I will do with mine. Heck, you seem to be connected with organizing Audi club DE's - how many accidents have they had in the last 10 events? Seems like this started with a discussion about an event that had 3 or more accidents in one or two days -was that Audi Club?

ejfiii

I can't believe that no one has ever told you that they think track droving is more dangerous than street droving.

I'm telling you now. Survey shermvey. You dont need to to look at Mark's emperical evidence to know that over the past 15 years that I have been doing DEs accidents occur more now than ever before.

DEs are everywhere and as the number of track miles go up, so does the number of wrecks, injuries and death.

Come on, get your head out of the clouds. If you haven't seen a wreck at a DE consider yourself lucky and make sure your event insurance coverage is up to date as its going to happen sooner or later even to the DEs you run.

I have probably ~200 DE days and have a SCCA competition license. I have instructed for at least 10 of those years. I wont do it anymore as the students are mostly clueless people with more money than sense now a days. My first DE was the day after I turned 16. That day a BMW ended up on its roof in a big puddle and the drovers head was inches from being covered by the water. He lost the car but was fine.

I have seen a ton of wrecks since then. Look at the other thread where three cars were wrecked at VIR a few days ago. Ridiculous - yes! Common - more and more.

I find it ridiculous that Mark has to back up his claims with emperical data to prove his point. Pretty sure Mark knows a lot about current saftey issues and lots of other track stuff he's not telling us.

At any rate, you want to go on believing that droving street cars at the track is safe - fine. I dont really care. But to people who really know about going the track it seems kind of silly.

ejfiii

thats the average I have seen.

O.W. Kenobi

You claimed to have survey results. If you choose not to share the methodology and the data, then I think you're being misleading with your statements. Again, I never claimed to have survey results.

And while I don't organize events, I actively promote them because I think they're a safe way to learn and have fun. I don't benefit in any way other than having more people with whom to enjoy the events. I guess I indirectly benefit by encouraging my fellow drivers to become better skilled, thus reducing the chance that they're going to plow into me on the street. But that's stretching the indirect benefits pretty thin.

O.W. Kenobi

A survey implies some scientific control. Otherwise, it's just his opinion. It may be a wonderful, well supported opinion, but it doesn't sound like it rises to the level of a survey.

Sorry if I'm splitting hairs, but the word "survey" is pretty weighty in my eyes.

ejfiii

I am telling you that I consider DEs to be far less safe than droving on the street. Period, end of story.

Now you can no longer say that "NO ONE HAS EVER TOLD ME THAT DROVING AT THE TRACK IS LESS SAFE THAN ON THE STREET."

AudiJon

If you need further proof of what he's talking about, I can post pics of my shattered leg. I'd actually love to share the initial x-ray with you guys if I can get ahold of it.