Question again - maybe others besides Young will reply
05-06-2002, 06:43 AM
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 583
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Question again - maybe others besides Young will reply
With at least one insurance co excluding DE's, and other to certainly follow, here are the questions... (Assuming your insurance excludes DE's)
1. Would you continue doing DE's without coverage?
2. Would you rent a race prepped car for DE's?
If so, would you pay the following rates for these kinds of cars:
A) IT, Showroom Stock, etc @ $750/day or $1,000 per day for something like a race prepped 944. Also available for two drivers in two run groups at a premium of ~20%.
B) SpecRacer Ford @ $1200/day. Available to share at a premium of ~20%.
C) Radical SR3 @ $3000+/day. No sharing as it is too high strung.
Each would require some sort of damage deposit or bond. While you would be responsible for damage, the repairs on A & B cars are cheap and would not get street car quality body repairs.
3. Would you be willing to pay insurance per event (~$100/day) if it were available?
So, what does everyone think? Is there an opportunity here?
1. Would you continue doing DE's without coverage?
2. Would you rent a race prepped car for DE's?
If so, would you pay the following rates for these kinds of cars:
A) IT, Showroom Stock, etc @ $750/day or $1,000 per day for something like a race prepped 944. Also available for two drivers in two run groups at a premium of ~20%.
B) SpecRacer Ford @ $1200/day. Available to share at a premium of ~20%.
C) Radical SR3 @ $3000+/day. No sharing as it is too high strung.
Each would require some sort of damage deposit or bond. While you would be responsible for damage, the repairs on A & B cars are cheap and would not get street car quality body repairs.
3. Would you be willing to pay insurance per event (~$100/day) if it were available?
So, what does everyone think? Is there an opportunity here?
05-06-2002, 07:52 AM
#2
AudiWorld Super User
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,174
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just so everyone gets some perspective on this...
It costs (hard, out of pocket cost, no padding or profit) about $200-400 an hour to run a low-tech track prepped car on the track. We're talking VW Golf, RX-7 (non-turbo), Miata, or any other adequately prepped econo-box. Bigger guns cost exponentially more.
That's just the cost to have the car running. That money hasn't built it. That money hasn't gotten it to the track. That money won't pay to fix it if it's stuffed into a wall.
Things you have to remember:
1.) Tires cost money. Race tires wear out faster, and cost more money than street tires.
2.) Brakes pads and rotors cost money. You can easily burn thru $200 in brakes in a day.
3.) You can burn up 25 gallons of gas in a blink. How much does gas cost you ?
4.) Automobile parts have a finite life. If you're street motor spend a lot of it's life above 5000 rpm, how long between rebuilds would it live ? (answer: about 30-70 hours). Transmissions and driveline pieces wear, and suspension pieces get hammered. $1500 worth of shocks can get trashed in a single season.
5.) Somehow, that car has to get transported to the track and supported during the day.
6.) Someone has to assume the financial risk if the car gets wadded up. If not the driver, who ?
Rental car ? If you wad it up and lie to the rental car company about how it happened, you've commited a fraud. Felony fraud. You get to become somebody's girlfriend in the Big House. If you tell them the truth, their legal department will work overtime to find a way to stick you with the bill, regardless of how much extra collision damage you bought, regardless of what YOU think the rental contract says. You have a legal fight on your hands. My lawyer gets $400/hr. to keep me out of hot water. How much does yours charge ? How much it it going to cost you to keep the rental car company and their insurers at bay ?
Here in the east, cars for track days cost $500+ per day - and we're talking ITB VW Golf GTI's and flogged out Nissan Sentra SER's.. Want a Busch Grand Nat'l car ? $3000/day, please. Want an SRF ? $900-1300/day. And you have a pre-agreed upon damage price list and a "crash-out" value. If you total it, you get to pay for it.
The exclusion of DE events and any track-use from automotive insurance policies is significant. Not only is your damage not covered, it extends to your medical and liability coverage. Bang up a passenger in your car ? You're on the hook. Don't think that the insurance companies aren't all going to clamp down hard on this. You can continue to have fun your street car at DE's, but you need to be aware that you're on the hook if something bad happens. Would you rather total your $40,000 street car, or a $8000 track beater ?
If you're doing 20-30 track days a year, then it probably makes sense to have your own track-prepped car. If, like most people, you're only doing 2-6 track days a year, then consider what you're spending on your on car to prep it, and factor in the risks we've been hearing about.
Just another little homily from your friends here at Trained Seals Labs......
That's just the cost to have the car running. That money hasn't built it. That money hasn't gotten it to the track. That money won't pay to fix it if it's stuffed into a wall.
Things you have to remember:
1.) Tires cost money. Race tires wear out faster, and cost more money than street tires.
2.) Brakes pads and rotors cost money. You can easily burn thru $200 in brakes in a day.
3.) You can burn up 25 gallons of gas in a blink. How much does gas cost you ?
4.) Automobile parts have a finite life. If you're street motor spend a lot of it's life above 5000 rpm, how long between rebuilds would it live ? (answer: about 30-70 hours). Transmissions and driveline pieces wear, and suspension pieces get hammered. $1500 worth of shocks can get trashed in a single season.
5.) Somehow, that car has to get transported to the track and supported during the day.
6.) Someone has to assume the financial risk if the car gets wadded up. If not the driver, who ?
Rental car ? If you wad it up and lie to the rental car company about how it happened, you've commited a fraud. Felony fraud. You get to become somebody's girlfriend in the Big House. If you tell them the truth, their legal department will work overtime to find a way to stick you with the bill, regardless of how much extra collision damage you bought, regardless of what YOU think the rental contract says. You have a legal fight on your hands. My lawyer gets $400/hr. to keep me out of hot water. How much does yours charge ? How much it it going to cost you to keep the rental car company and their insurers at bay ?
Here in the east, cars for track days cost $500+ per day - and we're talking ITB VW Golf GTI's and flogged out Nissan Sentra SER's.. Want a Busch Grand Nat'l car ? $3000/day, please. Want an SRF ? $900-1300/day. And you have a pre-agreed upon damage price list and a "crash-out" value. If you total it, you get to pay for it.
The exclusion of DE events and any track-use from automotive insurance policies is significant. Not only is your damage not covered, it extends to your medical and liability coverage. Bang up a passenger in your car ? You're on the hook. Don't think that the insurance companies aren't all going to clamp down hard on this. You can continue to have fun your street car at DE's, but you need to be aware that you're on the hook if something bad happens. Would you rather total your $40,000 street car, or a $8000 track beater ?
If you're doing 20-30 track days a year, then it probably makes sense to have your own track-prepped car. If, like most people, you're only doing 2-6 track days a year, then consider what you're spending on your on car to prep it, and factor in the risks we've been hearing about.
Just another little homily from your friends here at Trained Seals Labs......
05-06-2002, 08:09 AM
#3
AudiWorld Expert
My input
I will do DE's without coverage because I have a track only car only worth about $6K. If it gets toasted...so be it. I may upgrade to a spec Miata..but then it will only be $10-11..maybe 12K.
For people driving their daily drivers, worth $18-90K...a $100/track event insurance coverage may be viable...just not for me at this point.
(side note to John/TSR, the S4 is gone now.) You have made me go to the dark side.
For people driving their daily drivers, worth $18-90K...a $100/track event insurance coverage may be viable...just not for me at this point.
(side note to John/TSR, the S4 is gone now.) You have made me go to the dark side.
05-06-2002, 08:52 AM
#4
New Member
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some thoughts on your idea
Mark,
I have been reading your posts on renting track cars with great interest. A year ago I had considered a similar venture with some friends of mine. We were thinking about buying 6 or 7 E30 M3's (or 944's) and renting them out for DE's only (no racing). At that time we decided not to pursue the idea as most people were still bringing their daily drivers or buying their own 10K track car and insurance companies were still slow to close the loopholes.
At that time it seemed that the ideal customer for such a car was someone who was planning to do maybe 3 or 4 track events per year and was worried about insurance issues on their daily driver should something bad happen. There were also interested parties who didn't want to spend the time and money upgrading their daily driver with more performance oriented track gear such as brakes, suspension, rollbars etc.
The person who does 8+ events (or days) is most likely going to forgo the expense of renting and just buy a 10K track car.
We got the idea from a friend of a friend who does something similar in the UK. He set up a rental business with about 10 E30 M3's all modestly race prepped and saftey equiped. He started the business because of the high insurance costs in the UK. If I remember correclty you can purchase track insurance in the UK but it is expensive.
His business was bought out buy another guy who was renting more exotic machinery (and more race oriented cars such as Catheram's, TVR's and such).
With the new policy language being added to insurance policies your idea may be a good one and the timing right. A year ago we found the market for such a product was too thin and we also found that many people didn't want to go from driving a "chiped" S4 with 300+ hp to a Porsche or BMW with 160-190 hp. It was hard convincing them that a race prepped M3 or 944 can be just as fast than a high hp street car. You and I both know that a race prepped 944 with 160 hp can be driven just as fast but most people are concerned with how fast they can blast down the straightaway.
Here are some things to consider:
1) Will most people be able to pay the deposit or bond on the car. Maybe 1 or 2K would be possible, but I am wondering how many people would put 5K on their credit card for a deposit.
2) What is the likely hood that someone does damage beyond the deposit and will likely not pay. On 10K cars this might not be a big problem but on a car like the Radical S3 it could be.
3) I will be driving a Radical S3 this summer on a trip top the UK. I would hesitate to let any student drive such a car. I know you are thinking SRF but the Radical S3 is way beyond most student's capabilites. The S3 with the Supertec engine can lap a course similar to an FC/FA or F3 car and this I think is too much power for a student. The other thing is crash expense on that car could easily end up being 15K+ (the car itself costs over 35K even in standard trim and can be spec'd out to nearly 50K.)
4) Are you willing to get into legal battles over why someone went off in turn XX because they claim the brakes failed (when in actuality they were driving out of control).
5) How to handle refunds when cars break down and how to determine when someone abuses the car (badly worn clutches for example).
6) Liability for someone injured in one of your cars. I know you will have liability waivers but people are still going to attempt to sue you if they get injured and while you may eventually win court costs could get expensive.
The other issue we found was that DE and track students differ widely from people who race in terms of their perceptions of risk. Most people who race (keep in mind I am new to racing) more accurately understand the risk they face when they go out on the track. Maybe it's because it's wheel to wheel racing in large groups at high speed. Maybe it's because common sense tells you racing is dangerous.
Most DE's students seem to underestimate their chance of getting injured or damaging their car because they are under the false impression that because there are strict rules on passing and no wheel to wheel racing they are much safer and less likely to have an accident. I don't agree with this. In fact I recently noticed in the past year or so that tech inspections at most clubs are very lax. At a recent event we found a car that lost it's brakes completely and later we found out the brake fluid was so dirty it looked like mud! I think cars are being let out on the track that have no business getting past tech inspection. At some events I go to they check you wheels but pulling on them (gee real smart, no torque wrench) and seeing if my brake lights work and that is it.
My first race weekend this past month had about the same number of incidents as a 2 day track event. We are talking about twice the number of cars and higher speeds than a DE event (ok, the damage was worse than at a DE event but that is to be expected).
As a student I also falsely felt that this was safer than racing. But 99% of all accidents at drivers schools are one car incidents that are the result of driver error, not contact with another car. An experienced racer can overdrive a car and save it regularly but a inexperienced student overdriving a car is dangerous.
The bottom line is that it may be a great business but you have to appoach it from the view that your customers are basically shifting as much risk as possible onto you and the question becomes, can you adequately charge a premium associated with that risk you are taking on (and charge enough above that to make a profit).
Just to give you an idea one SRF rentals, I pay about $850 per day and this is regardless of whether its a practice day with 2+ hours of track time, or a qualifying day with two 15 minute sessions. I think $1000 may be a bit high.
Just my two cents worth.
Regards,
Jon
I have been reading your posts on renting track cars with great interest. A year ago I had considered a similar venture with some friends of mine. We were thinking about buying 6 or 7 E30 M3's (or 944's) and renting them out for DE's only (no racing). At that time we decided not to pursue the idea as most people were still bringing their daily drivers or buying their own 10K track car and insurance companies were still slow to close the loopholes.
At that time it seemed that the ideal customer for such a car was someone who was planning to do maybe 3 or 4 track events per year and was worried about insurance issues on their daily driver should something bad happen. There were also interested parties who didn't want to spend the time and money upgrading their daily driver with more performance oriented track gear such as brakes, suspension, rollbars etc.
The person who does 8+ events (or days) is most likely going to forgo the expense of renting and just buy a 10K track car.
We got the idea from a friend of a friend who does something similar in the UK. He set up a rental business with about 10 E30 M3's all modestly race prepped and saftey equiped. He started the business because of the high insurance costs in the UK. If I remember correclty you can purchase track insurance in the UK but it is expensive.
His business was bought out buy another guy who was renting more exotic machinery (and more race oriented cars such as Catheram's, TVR's and such).
With the new policy language being added to insurance policies your idea may be a good one and the timing right. A year ago we found the market for such a product was too thin and we also found that many people didn't want to go from driving a "chiped" S4 with 300+ hp to a Porsche or BMW with 160-190 hp. It was hard convincing them that a race prepped M3 or 944 can be just as fast than a high hp street car. You and I both know that a race prepped 944 with 160 hp can be driven just as fast but most people are concerned with how fast they can blast down the straightaway.
Here are some things to consider:
1) Will most people be able to pay the deposit or bond on the car. Maybe 1 or 2K would be possible, but I am wondering how many people would put 5K on their credit card for a deposit.
2) What is the likely hood that someone does damage beyond the deposit and will likely not pay. On 10K cars this might not be a big problem but on a car like the Radical S3 it could be.
3) I will be driving a Radical S3 this summer on a trip top the UK. I would hesitate to let any student drive such a car. I know you are thinking SRF but the Radical S3 is way beyond most student's capabilites. The S3 with the Supertec engine can lap a course similar to an FC/FA or F3 car and this I think is too much power for a student. The other thing is crash expense on that car could easily end up being 15K+ (the car itself costs over 35K even in standard trim and can be spec'd out to nearly 50K.)
4) Are you willing to get into legal battles over why someone went off in turn XX because they claim the brakes failed (when in actuality they were driving out of control).
5) How to handle refunds when cars break down and how to determine when someone abuses the car (badly worn clutches for example).
6) Liability for someone injured in one of your cars. I know you will have liability waivers but people are still going to attempt to sue you if they get injured and while you may eventually win court costs could get expensive.
The other issue we found was that DE and track students differ widely from people who race in terms of their perceptions of risk. Most people who race (keep in mind I am new to racing) more accurately understand the risk they face when they go out on the track. Maybe it's because it's wheel to wheel racing in large groups at high speed. Maybe it's because common sense tells you racing is dangerous.
Most DE's students seem to underestimate their chance of getting injured or damaging their car because they are under the false impression that because there are strict rules on passing and no wheel to wheel racing they are much safer and less likely to have an accident. I don't agree with this. In fact I recently noticed in the past year or so that tech inspections at most clubs are very lax. At a recent event we found a car that lost it's brakes completely and later we found out the brake fluid was so dirty it looked like mud! I think cars are being let out on the track that have no business getting past tech inspection. At some events I go to they check you wheels but pulling on them (gee real smart, no torque wrench) and seeing if my brake lights work and that is it.
My first race weekend this past month had about the same number of incidents as a 2 day track event. We are talking about twice the number of cars and higher speeds than a DE event (ok, the damage was worse than at a DE event but that is to be expected).
As a student I also falsely felt that this was safer than racing. But 99% of all accidents at drivers schools are one car incidents that are the result of driver error, not contact with another car. An experienced racer can overdrive a car and save it regularly but a inexperienced student overdriving a car is dangerous.
The bottom line is that it may be a great business but you have to appoach it from the view that your customers are basically shifting as much risk as possible onto you and the question becomes, can you adequately charge a premium associated with that risk you are taking on (and charge enough above that to make a profit).
Just to give you an idea one SRF rentals, I pay about $850 per day and this is regardless of whether its a practice day with 2+ hours of track time, or a qualifying day with two 15 minute sessions. I think $1000 may be a bit high.
Just my two cents worth.
Regards,
Jon
05-06-2002, 09:13 AM
#5
AudiWorld Super User
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 7,868
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmm...
A lot of that depends on the school. Many of the clubs don't allow any prepared-race cars. Anything open-wheeled is a no-no depending on the school. And you're going to have to make assumptions on the level of the studen't ability in regards to tires, etc.
If a novice (2-5 events, say) shows up at one of the events I run with a full-prepped race car, with R-compounds, they are going to do a lot of sitting in the paddock, particularly if they weren't up-front about the car in the first place. This doesn't matter if it's an Audi or not. Just becasue they have the cash doesn't mean they should drive even a showroom stock car.
Of course, based on that thinking, one of the major problems (MY Opinion) of schools/drivers and the reason the Insurance company is getting tougher, is that people with jack sh*t (or 2 events) experience show up to these schools with cars that are WAAAAY above their head in terms of power, brakes, etc. They get into a situation the car allows them to get into, but don't know how to handle it when the corner approches too fast, etc. Again, just because you can AFFORD to put 400 hp into your S4/TT/M3 doesn't mean you:
1) Should
2) can control it.
But that's a whole different rant.
Who knows, with the fun money people seem to have these days, you may make a mint on it. BUT, one guy rolls the car and kills/cripples himself and there will be problems. And no matter the waiver or what, people will probably drive these rentals like they stole them. And that means lots of body damage, etc.
Jon
If a novice (2-5 events, say) shows up at one of the events I run with a full-prepped race car, with R-compounds, they are going to do a lot of sitting in the paddock, particularly if they weren't up-front about the car in the first place. This doesn't matter if it's an Audi or not. Just becasue they have the cash doesn't mean they should drive even a showroom stock car.
Of course, based on that thinking, one of the major problems (MY Opinion) of schools/drivers and the reason the Insurance company is getting tougher, is that people with jack sh*t (or 2 events) experience show up to these schools with cars that are WAAAAY above their head in terms of power, brakes, etc. They get into a situation the car allows them to get into, but don't know how to handle it when the corner approches too fast, etc. Again, just because you can AFFORD to put 400 hp into your S4/TT/M3 doesn't mean you:
1) Should
2) can control it.
But that's a whole different rant.
Who knows, with the fun money people seem to have these days, you may make a mint on it. BUT, one guy rolls the car and kills/cripples himself and there will be problems. And no matter the waiver or what, people will probably drive these rentals like they stole them. And that means lots of body damage, etc.
Jon
05-06-2002, 10:05 AM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,844
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well...
I'll do DE's without insurance coverage. I don't think it's worth renting a car for a DE....if you're an instructor you don't want to incur the expense (and maybe already likely to have a disposable track car), and if you're a student, you're probably there to learn how to drive your own car. So, unless you're talking about skip barber, I'd probably pass.
If it's a racing school, or a race weekend, I'd be more inclined to rent a car (and, your rents look like the typical ones I see around these parts) if I didn't have one or wanted to check out some other car/class before I commited to it.
If it's a racing school, or a race weekend, I'd be more inclined to rent a car (and, your rents look like the typical ones I see around these parts) if I didn't have one or wanted to check out some other car/class before I commited to it.
05-06-2002, 10:58 AM
#7
Elder Member
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 17,768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No one gave me this breakdown BEFORE I started tracking my car ;)
I was thinking about this the other day...
I've spent $3k on my car just for safety equipment. In other words, I've paid $3k just so that if I total the car, I can walk away and say "wow, I just totalled my audi".
nuts, really.
regards,
Liam
I've spent $3k on my car just for safety equipment. In other words, I've paid $3k just so that if I total the car, I can walk away and say "wow, I just totalled my audi".
nuts, really.
regards,
Liam
Trending Topics
05-06-2002, 11:04 AM
#8
AudiWorld Expert
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 32,550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Okay...
1. No
2. Yes
2a. Yes, up to a point. For me it makes more sense to go get a track dedicated car, as a lot of regular track attendees seem to be doing, and I'm *this* close to getting one myself. I just have to find a place to park the thing.
2b. I personally wouldn't rent an SRF, just because, well, I don't have that much experience yet. I think you should limit the type of people who want to hop into an SRF as it's definitely, in my eyes, a car that's not your average car.
2c. See 2b above, but even with stricter rules pertaining to experience. It's great that you are getting a 2 seater as you can do a mini-DE yourself with a student before letting them loose in that thing. Personally, I'd be scared of that machine.
3. Insurance for what? Your cars or the student's daily driver? I'd personally pay insurance for DE coverage for my street car, up to a point when having a track car makes more sense.
I would think that people come to a logical conclusion in their minds as they do more and more track events for needing a track dedicated car. I've just recently come to that conclusion since the beginning of this year. So, it has taken me a approximately 2 years to do arrive to this conclusion. I always knew that I should really get a car that I can beat up on for the track, but I was in denial. Also as a novice, a student tends to think that a high HP car is the way to go. As I did more and more of these things, I realized the opposite. High HP is nice, but it's all about fun. I really understood it when I took my Jetta to the track. Sure, it handled like a pig, but the fun factor was there, nonetheless.
I really think people have to come to their own realizations. It's like telling kids not to do something. Until something happens, there's very little you can do.
2. Yes
2a. Yes, up to a point. For me it makes more sense to go get a track dedicated car, as a lot of regular track attendees seem to be doing, and I'm *this* close to getting one myself. I just have to find a place to park the thing.
2b. I personally wouldn't rent an SRF, just because, well, I don't have that much experience yet. I think you should limit the type of people who want to hop into an SRF as it's definitely, in my eyes, a car that's not your average car.
2c. See 2b above, but even with stricter rules pertaining to experience. It's great that you are getting a 2 seater as you can do a mini-DE yourself with a student before letting them loose in that thing. Personally, I'd be scared of that machine.
3. Insurance for what? Your cars or the student's daily driver? I'd personally pay insurance for DE coverage for my street car, up to a point when having a track car makes more sense.
I would think that people come to a logical conclusion in their minds as they do more and more track events for needing a track dedicated car. I've just recently come to that conclusion since the beginning of this year. So, it has taken me a approximately 2 years to do arrive to this conclusion. I always knew that I should really get a car that I can beat up on for the track, but I was in denial. Also as a novice, a student tends to think that a high HP car is the way to go. As I did more and more of these things, I realized the opposite. High HP is nice, but it's all about fun. I really understood it when I took my Jetta to the track. Sure, it handled like a pig, but the fun factor was there, nonetheless.
I really think people have to come to their own realizations. It's like telling kids not to do something. Until something happens, there's very little you can do.
05-06-2002, 11:06 AM
#9
AudiWorld Expert
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 32,550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree really on this. DE's never emphasize on getting a track car
God knows I spent so much money on the S4, I'd have my track car and spares to boot. Oh well, live and learn.
05-06-2002, 11:11 AM
#10
AudiWorld Super User
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 7,868
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think that is thier place to do...
in fact, why should they encourage people to spend the $$$? I have a hard enough time convincing beginners to not buy an $800 helmet, racing suit and shoes, let alone modifications/track car, for their first event! I have to, time and time again, remind them that it's silly to spend all kinds of $$$ before you like something.
If warning is needed, it's on sites like this, etc. At least from my perspective as an eventmaster (who's QUITE concerned with unskilled drivers with too much HP on teh track), we do our best at Summit Point and VIR to officially make people slow down on the modifications, etc. Tell them to take their time, learn, and THEN decide what you want to do.
If warning is needed, it's on sites like this, etc. At least from my perspective as an eventmaster (who's QUITE concerned with unskilled drivers with too much HP on teh track), we do our best at Summit Point and VIR to officially make people slow down on the modifications, etc. Tell them to take their time, learn, and THEN decide what you want to do.