Potomac-Greg

... task for Audi to match or even threaten that program. I saw a TV program on how Porsche churns out race cars. There's nothing even remotely close.

Mike S

the car most likely will race in.

I, sadly and frustratingly, work with Porsche Motorsport weekly and have done so for about a year now.

Been through the factory. Seen the Cup chassis being built. Been in the engine rooms, Been to Weissach (NOT easy to get into). Was at Porsche two weeks ago.

The belief that Porsche is über-good at building race cars is way over blown. They are famous for not having parts in stock, giving "special" parts and treatment to their pet teams, etc.

No matter how good Porsche is, they cannot get around the physics of their engine hanging over the rear axle.

In the end, if Audi wants to beat Porsche in GT cars, they can and will do it. But that's a big if.

Mike S

Krisko

I love the racing, but it's not a true benchmark for marque vs marque racing. There is tons of favoritism (audi was a favorite for a time), certain cars are heavily penalized after a strong performance (auberlen competes in 4 WC races but all BMWs are penalized), some cars can install race pars while others have to remain stock.

Audi is great and Porsche is great but you can't determine from WCGT that Audi > Porsche.

I agree with you on the ALMS P1/P2 thing. Porsche designed that car as a P1 car but was afraid of failure so they wouldn't match up with audi. Pretty weak and unlike the Porsche racing heritage as I understand it anyway.

Mike S

can we review here that we are purely TALKING ABOUT RACE GT CARS!

We are not comparing the stock R8 to a stock 997 (or GT3). We are talking a race preppsed R8 vs a race prepped 997. So what these cars do, offer, what weigth distribution they have, total weigh, etc in street format is not even relative to the coversation or debate.

As I noted before, Audi has been able to race prep RS6's and S4's to beat GT3R's with 450-460hp in every series championship they've entered.

If you consider that many (all) 996 GT3R got their asses handed to them for four straight years by Audi sedans weighing 300-400lbs more in World Challenge, and that their main advantage was AWD, anyone with any race understanding would likely get that a mid engined R8 race prepped would likely do even better.

Now consider my client and one of my best friends, Randy Pobst, drove the winningest World Challenge GT series Porsche, the 3R 996 in 2002, and the next year drove the series champion RS6 in teh same series. Do you think maybe we've talked about this? Do you think a lot of my information might be coming from the source, not via guesswork? Do you think that Randy might feel that quattro was the only true advantage the RS6 had (oh, and he drove the S4 as well)?

Then throw in the fact that the R8 has won 8 of 10 magazine tests in it's stock form, is 8 seconds faster than a 997 around the Nordschleife, and dead even with a 997 GT3.

Krisko, I know you have a hard time believing that Quattro or AWD is an advantage. Your premise is often correct, in street form, it can often hurt weight distribution to a point of being detrimental to speed when pushed to the limit.

But in situations where weight disribution can be controlled, and where power distribution is appropriate between axles, it is a huge advantage,

AWD has been banned in about every touring car series outside the US, in DTM, in Champ Car, in ALMS p1/2, IRL, F1 and many more. There is a reason for this. As in the above set up, when contructed and applied appropriately, it is a huge advantage.

Hence, when a company of the technology and quality of Audi decides to built a race car to race in a series, they only do so when they are sure they can be competitive.

You can hold whatever you opinion you want, but that doesn't mean it's accurate. In the end, Audi Quattro race cars have dominated every series they've entered with similar HP and weight, with the only large difference being quattro. IMSA, Trans-Am, DTM, BTC, ATC, WGT, etc. And the non-factory Stasis won more races last year than any other manufacturer in WC TC, as an independent, finishing third to two manufacturer teams.

In the end, quattro in an appropriately built car, is worth it's 175lbs penalty.

Mike S

Potomac-Greg

I think the depth of the Porsche program (measured solely by the number of current race cars in service around the world) is several times that of the next player, at least.

Don't get me wrong, I want Audi (or anyone else except a GM derivative) to beat Porsche. It's boring when 1/2 the grid is comprised of those "bugs." ;-)

Mike S

an RS4 would change your opinion.


As for Porsche's in racing, Mazda has more race cars racing in the world than any other manufacturer in the world. Porsche is the second largest player.

As for physics, the 911 is far more challenged by physics than any front engines vehicles. They have twice planned to drop the 911, but enthusiast/traditionalists have demanded it's continuance (thank God, as it's still a wickedly cool car).

Lastly, this entire thread and debate is about the R8 as a race car. We are not comparing street cars. The R8 is mid engined and is a more capable car in stock form, as the tests have shown, than a 997 and in many tests, a 997 GT3.

The side debate has turned into the value and and viability of quattro in a race format. The 80's IMSA and Trans Am cars, the DTM cars of the 90's and the WC GT cars have proven that in a car of proper weight distribution, AWD is far from a detriment.

Lastly, a lot of Audi's quattro equipped cars push/plow tendancy has less to do with the weight distrubution vs the drive configuration or 50/50. When switched to 40/60 (RS4) or to 20/80 (Stasis Touring Car), all without moving the engine, the handling is vastly changed.


Additionally, please realize that Porsche does not sponsor teams as a general rule. The only somewhat factory sponsored Porsche Team in the US over the past decade has been Alex Job. Not Petersen, not 3R, etc. Same can be said in SuperCup and Carrera Cup. They get cars lent to them, the "best" motors, their drives paid for. But no cash, etc.

Porsche race cars are customer cars. Every 997 in Rolex and Speed GT, every one in ALMS, is a privately purchased car.

Teams purchase Porsche (choose them) as their cars are simply the most reliable and supported in the pack. If you race a corvette, you must develope it. Same with any other chassis. When you race another manufacturers car, there is no parts truck at the races to support you. There is no tech line to call. There is no receommended set up. On top of that, you can buy a 997 race car for $180,000 and run it out of the box (you need about $90K in upgrades to win in Rolex/WC GT) mid pack. To run a prep 2 car in Rolex or built a race car for either series, you are lookng at $300K min (prep 2 upwards of $1 mil+) and you have no support, no parts truck, etc. All the sorting must be done yourself.

Therefore, Porsche's aren't necessarily the best or fastest cars, but they are the most race ready out of the box, most inexpensive and most supported. It's a simple decision, and why you see so many on the race grids of America and the world.

Mike S

Krisko

It's just teh internets man, lighten up!

You tried to demonstrate that the Audi is a superior racing car than the 911 based upon WCGT results. I think that's foolish because of the nature of the SCCA's rules. They keep changing everything around all year long to keep it competitive. And there is rampant favoritism...some cars are stock dimensions/components while others are allowed to change everything.

And not once did I mention quattro vs rwd but you have twice or more in this thread. I don't care but you seem to immensely.

Comparing a race prepped R8 to a 911 is literally impossible because the former doesn't even exist. Probably the only way to determine the better race car is to prep an example of each extensively and get lap times with the same driver (pobst would do). Even that wouldn't settle anything but it would be interesting to talk about.

Potomac-Greg

... race car yet. Audi (and the many FWD cars out there) have made incredible strides with a 60/40 weight distribution; just as Porsche has with their backward weight distribution.

Potomac-Greg

If every other parameter (other than things affected by engine location) is identical, the mid engine will beat a car with the engine out back OR out front. Hard to dispute that.

In practice, it's been shown that genius engineering can make an imbalanced car handle as well as a lesser-engineered, balanced car; and in a racing series, the organizers will hobble the superior cars to create parity, making direct comparisons useless!

Mike S

of facts, results, pro drivers opinions for years.

The issue here was R8 vs 911.

As you noted, the pure dynamic design of the car makes it better than a Porsche with a rear engine every could be.


Mike S