word has it that a kid won $10K winner take all drifting competition in Laguna seca
05-09-2004, 05:01 PM
#11
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huh? not sure where youre coming from.
the 17yo kid won, i'm happy for him. the 'non-asian' dude will win someday - see its not that *easy*, i'm sure he'll practice some more and take the 'white-kind' into victory 
. and the same as any sport, the challenge has been laid out, competitors pick their weapon and have a shot at it, then someone wins the prize, an organization declares a champion. sounds cool to me, but if you want to drive around with your friends thats cool too. better if you win something, no? i won another beer mug yesterday yay 
btw, 75% of the local drifters are non-asians(mostly whites), probably not the same in CA. youre lucky youre right there, you could join up and show them how its done. you dont have to take your helmet off if you think its a disadvantage
. and the same as any sport, the challenge has been laid out, competitors pick their weapon and have a shot at it, then someone wins the prize, an organization declares a champion. sounds cool to me, but if you want to drive around with your friends thats cool too. better if you win something, no? i won another beer mug yesterday yay btw, 75% of the local drifters are non-asians(mostly whites), probably not the same in CA. youre lucky youre right there, you could join up and show them how its done. you dont have to take your helmet off if you think its a disadvantage
05-09-2004, 09:45 PM
#12
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youre the 1st i've heard to say drift 'racing' - sounds stupid, no? well, it came from you
glad to know you acknowledge millen's skills, which is most likely better than everyone in this board, agree? and i believe he will spank the 17yo kid in his own game but thats another topic. so he lost to a kid, definitely because of lack of seat time - that would be the same if they'd race in millen's own game.
i really wonder if any of you can actually figure skate to speak of it like its easy. but you, i know you can't
curious, do you have any motorsport organization to proclaim you as champion? you seem like the typical heckler from here
i really wonder if any of you can actually figure skate to speak of it like its easy. but you, i know you can't
curious, do you have any motorsport organization to proclaim you as champion? you seem like the typical heckler from here
05-10-2004, 04:49 AM
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The public aka those who pays for pro motorsport don't give a rates *** what real racers think.
The public don't care/know how much hp F3000 makes, what place F3 stands in the ladder, how much better Ferrari is to Minardi... and all that.
They want to see a show "."
Who ever puts on a better show wins "real" racing or not.
Pro racing series is 10% sport 90% show.
Pro racing team is 10% racing 90% ad agency.
Pro driver is 10% racer 90% public hero.
Its a business, not a sport.
They want to see a show "."
Who ever puts on a better show wins "real" racing or not.
Pro racing series is 10% sport 90% show.
Pro racing team is 10% racing 90% ad agency.
Pro driver is 10% racer 90% public hero.
Its a business, not a sport.
05-10-2004, 07:15 AM
#14
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we all know that hence theres the Tide, Viagra cars. every organization would benefit
for hosting/sponsoring or else whats the point? this is a whole other topic again. i do agree with you ... *Tirerack* Prosolo, *Honda* challenge, SpeedVision(network) - i dont think the racers/competitor gives a rats *** either. its business to companies, a sport to the drivers, a show for the spectators - what is so difficult to understand?
FYI, the kid passed Millen while both drifting thru turn 2(i think). the underdog loving crowd probably roared. Millen got smoked, he probably already accepted it right there when it happened. none of this has anything to do with the 'racers' youre refering to.
FYI, the kid passed Millen while both drifting thru turn 2(i think). the underdog loving crowd probably roared. Millen got smoked, he probably already accepted it right there when it happened. none of this has anything to do with the 'racers' youre refering to.
05-10-2004, 10:00 AM
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see, there's a fundamental difference...
the ONLY way I have ever become a champion in a racing series was to win more races and/or get more points for my finishing position than the other racers. I'm currently leading an endurance-racing championship because I have more points from my finishing positions than anyone else. How the officials "feel" about me or what anyone who happened to be watching the race thought about it is totally irrelevant. I won.
In "drifting" the organization "proclaims" you champion...the winner does not perform to an objective criteria...ie start here...finish here...whoever finishes first wins. The actual "winner" isn't the fastest guy or the guy who crosses the line first...it's the guy who the "judges" and "fans" LIKE most. Because objective "style" points are so important, the best guy in the field having his best day can lose due to the whims of a judge...just like figure skating. This is what makes it a SHOW rather than an objective SPORT.
Racing has a purity of competition...at the front of the grid, there are drivers who can win races. They compete against each other to see who wins on any particular day. Money and sponsors and politics are only byproducts of the sport but ultimately they don't simply hand out a trophy because of the guy's "style". Frequently someone comes along who is SO MUCH BETTER than everyone else, they dominate a form of racing (MS and Ferrari for example) and this simply reinforces how far above everyone else their abilities and preparation are.
I race for the personal satisfaction of doing it better than the other guy (or not) at a race. I neither require spectators, fans or judges OR "prizes" to get that satisfaction...it's something I do PURELY for myself. It's fun to share it with people I know and people who help but out on the track it's me against the other drivers and I know when I've done it well or when I haven't. The difficulty of preparing a car and driving it as fast as it can go in wheel-to-wheel proximity with equally determined drivers for several hours at a stretch is a personal accomplishment.
Would it be nice to get $10k for it? Sure...if I ran Speed Touring the $150k+/yr I spent could net $10k+ prizes but that would hardly offset the investment of time and money even a little bit. I'm sure some guy at a pro drifting competition spent far more than $10k showing up (the point that John was making) so his net "profit" is probably -$30k or so (first of all he had to buy a car didn't he?).
I assume he gets personal satisfaction out of it...for the people who drift that I've met and talked to, that satisfaction comes from an ego boost they get from the feedback of other people and the validation of their peers (gee you're cool). This also puts fairly heavy emphasis on removing obsticles to the skill requirement (electonic throttle/diff controls, special "drift" tires etc...so the car basically drifts on its own and the drivers "manage" the steering).
This is pretty much the opposite of why people race and therefore the two "sports" are basically at odds with each other. Nobody gives a s**t about you or how "cool" you are at the sharp end of a race...you can either out-drive and out-race those other guys or not and how you finish will answer that question unequivocably. HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people around the world appreciate this aspect of it and therefore companies find it valuable to associate with these competitors.
Also, the foundation of motor racing requires proof of claims of greatness...it's not enough to simply SAY you are great because of one thing...there is a well-established heirarchy and ladder and drifting exists outside of that ladder (and as long as it's subjective it always will) so claims of "greatest driver" are irrelevant since we have a well-established way of determining "greatest drivers".
When a drift driver crosses-over into F1 and wins the world championship then he'll be validated. Upstart recent "show" motorsports cannot simply proclaim themselves and their drivers to be "great" and it's not for the great drivers in the established motorsports to "prove" themselves to drifters!
In "drifting" the organization "proclaims" you champion...the winner does not perform to an objective criteria...ie start here...finish here...whoever finishes first wins. The actual "winner" isn't the fastest guy or the guy who crosses the line first...it's the guy who the "judges" and "fans" LIKE most. Because objective "style" points are so important, the best guy in the field having his best day can lose due to the whims of a judge...just like figure skating. This is what makes it a SHOW rather than an objective SPORT.
Racing has a purity of competition...at the front of the grid, there are drivers who can win races. They compete against each other to see who wins on any particular day. Money and sponsors and politics are only byproducts of the sport but ultimately they don't simply hand out a trophy because of the guy's "style". Frequently someone comes along who is SO MUCH BETTER than everyone else, they dominate a form of racing (MS and Ferrari for example) and this simply reinforces how far above everyone else their abilities and preparation are.
I race for the personal satisfaction of doing it better than the other guy (or not) at a race. I neither require spectators, fans or judges OR "prizes" to get that satisfaction...it's something I do PURELY for myself. It's fun to share it with people I know and people who help but out on the track it's me against the other drivers and I know when I've done it well or when I haven't. The difficulty of preparing a car and driving it as fast as it can go in wheel-to-wheel proximity with equally determined drivers for several hours at a stretch is a personal accomplishment.
Would it be nice to get $10k for it? Sure...if I ran Speed Touring the $150k+/yr I spent could net $10k+ prizes but that would hardly offset the investment of time and money even a little bit. I'm sure some guy at a pro drifting competition spent far more than $10k showing up (the point that John was making) so his net "profit" is probably -$30k or so (first of all he had to buy a car didn't he?).
I assume he gets personal satisfaction out of it...for the people who drift that I've met and talked to, that satisfaction comes from an ego boost they get from the feedback of other people and the validation of their peers (gee you're cool). This also puts fairly heavy emphasis on removing obsticles to the skill requirement (electonic throttle/diff controls, special "drift" tires etc...so the car basically drifts on its own and the drivers "manage" the steering).
This is pretty much the opposite of why people race and therefore the two "sports" are basically at odds with each other. Nobody gives a s**t about you or how "cool" you are at the sharp end of a race...you can either out-drive and out-race those other guys or not and how you finish will answer that question unequivocably. HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people around the world appreciate this aspect of it and therefore companies find it valuable to associate with these competitors.
Also, the foundation of motor racing requires proof of claims of greatness...it's not enough to simply SAY you are great because of one thing...there is a well-established heirarchy and ladder and drifting exists outside of that ladder (and as long as it's subjective it always will) so claims of "greatest driver" are irrelevant since we have a well-established way of determining "greatest drivers".
When a drift driver crosses-over into F1 and wins the world championship then he'll be validated. Upstart recent "show" motorsports cannot simply proclaim themselves and their drivers to be "great" and it's not for the great drivers in the established motorsports to "prove" themselves to drifters!
05-10-2004, 10:06 AM
#18
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where do you get these ideas?
go win some pro races and then tell me it's a show and not a sport. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Regardless of the rules or series or money, the top 10% of drivers in any pro racing series are LIGHT YEARS better than the other 90% and if you think that's a show...you're in for a rude awakening when you get in a race with those guys. Being a "hero" driver with money isn't going to help you one bit...having a beelion fans isn't going to win you one single race and your nationality or hair color or personality isn't going to will that car across the finish line ahead of one other driver unless you are BETTER THAN THEM.
In order to pay for the sport, there has to be a LOT of promotion and marketing but none of that applies to the actual race that happens on the track. The results are due to preparation, ability and execution.
Professional racing existed for decades with NO sponsorship and nearly 100% of the spectator money going to the promoter. Even in recent years, 100% self-funded teams have competed and won in international professional racing because the people were sportsmen, competitors and racers and did it purely for the love of the sport.
Nowadays to break in, you need huge quantities of money AND talent. There are enough people with huge quantites of both to fill the few hundred seats available in any given year so guess who wins the races...the guys with ABILITY.
No matter where or how you spend the money, you are going to be a backmarker unless you have at LEAST as much talent as the top 10% and only the top 1% of that group are ever going to win any championships. Being a "showman" will never win you a single race and that's something you and WISYWIG don't seem to understand. At the sharp end of a race with determined and talented pro drivers is a world that you don't know anything about unless you've been there. It's like a boxing match...there's plenty of BS before and after but go tell those two guys in the ring they're in a "show" and not a "sport".
Regardless of the rules or series or money, the top 10% of drivers in any pro racing series are LIGHT YEARS better than the other 90% and if you think that's a show...you're in for a rude awakening when you get in a race with those guys. Being a "hero" driver with money isn't going to help you one bit...having a beelion fans isn't going to win you one single race and your nationality or hair color or personality isn't going to will that car across the finish line ahead of one other driver unless you are BETTER THAN THEM.
In order to pay for the sport, there has to be a LOT of promotion and marketing but none of that applies to the actual race that happens on the track. The results are due to preparation, ability and execution.
Professional racing existed for decades with NO sponsorship and nearly 100% of the spectator money going to the promoter. Even in recent years, 100% self-funded teams have competed and won in international professional racing because the people were sportsmen, competitors and racers and did it purely for the love of the sport.
Nowadays to break in, you need huge quantities of money AND talent. There are enough people with huge quantites of both to fill the few hundred seats available in any given year so guess who wins the races...the guys with ABILITY.
No matter where or how you spend the money, you are going to be a backmarker unless you have at LEAST as much talent as the top 10% and only the top 1% of that group are ever going to win any championships. Being a "showman" will never win you a single race and that's something you and WISYWIG don't seem to understand. At the sharp end of a race with determined and talented pro drivers is a world that you don't know anything about unless you've been there. It's like a boxing match...there's plenty of BS before and after but go tell those two guys in the ring they're in a "show" and not a "sport".
05-10-2004, 12:20 PM
#20
AudiWorld Expert
About those notable drivers...
RE:
(snip)Being a "hero" driver with money isn't going to help you one bit...having a beelion fans isn't going to win you one single race and your nationality or hair color or personality isn't going to will that car across the finish line ahead of one other driver unless you are BETTER THAN THEM. (snip)
Pete, one example of this is Derek Bell. In his prime he won lots of races including 24 hrs LeMans and other notable races. Two years ago with the Champion Audi team he didn't do so hot. Why? Because he was not as good at the other guys racing...its as simple as that.
What I really thought was good is when Paul Lambert won the Speed World Challenge Touring car race, from leading at pole, at Laguna. Yes, Paul knows Laguna and the other NorCal tracks...but still...a 96 A4 12V winning that race?...privateer team? That was really an accomplishment. Wish he could afford to get his butt back in the seat AND run StaSIS Engineering's retail business. Oh well, maybe next year..or the next?
(snip)Being a "hero" driver with money isn't going to help you one bit...having a beelion fans isn't going to win you one single race and your nationality or hair color or personality isn't going to will that car across the finish line ahead of one other driver unless you are BETTER THAN THEM. (snip)
Pete, one example of this is Derek Bell. In his prime he won lots of races including 24 hrs LeMans and other notable races. Two years ago with the Champion Audi team he didn't do so hot. Why? Because he was not as good at the other guys racing...its as simple as that.
What I really thought was good is when Paul Lambert won the Speed World Challenge Touring car race, from leading at pole, at Laguna. Yes, Paul knows Laguna and the other NorCal tracks...but still...a 96 A4 12V winning that race?...privateer team? That was really an accomplishment. Wish he could afford to get his butt back in the seat AND run StaSIS Engineering's retail business. Oh well, maybe next year..or the next?
