is apr tuning the best?
12-31-2002, 06:22 AM
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is apr tuning the best?
I'm a new audi owner and want mods!!! my research has convinced me that the guys in auburn have the most advanced r&d an performance mindset. any input?
12-31-2002, 10:31 AM
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I think Mirror|rorriM has the best R&D and performance mindset.
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12-31-2002, 04:18 PM
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We are all still waiting for
proof of your findings.
Because all the tuners still advertise using a 20-25% drive line loss for all chips and turbo upgrades on a quattro and I dont exactly see you fighting that point.
Because all the tuners still advertise using a 20-25% drive line loss for all chips and turbo upgrades on a quattro and I dont exactly see you fighting that point.
01-01-2003, 04:28 AM
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I have made my point quite clearly...
...incidentally, I have nothing to gain, unlike tuners.
I base my entire argument not on hypothesis, but upon the real world experience of the BMW racing community. The E30M3 group, specifically, has proven this theory over and over with engine and chassis dynos on everything from stock 2.3 rebuilds to radical 2.5 EVO setups...every one of them has proven the point that driveline loss is a constant...measured in ft/lbs. Obviously the hp losses are higher for engines turning over 8000rpm but the ft/lbs are constant.
It's convenient for tuners to use the % loss as a way to bolster hp figures. Just think, the difference between 20% and 25% on 190whp is a whopping 15.8hp. 15.8hp will sell a lot of chips to this community. Interestingly, nobody here cares where the power is, or how it comes on, or what the peak torque is....it's all about peak hp.
What I am waiting for is APR, GIAC & PES to pull a stock engine, stick it on an engine dyno and then stick it back in the car to chassis dyno it. Then they can do the same with their chipped engine and the Stage 3 or PES T-28. My point will be proven out. Unfortunately, you guys don't care enough to ask for this so we'll just keep using the % method as it makes everyone feel better.
I apologize for trying to enlighten the community. I will go back into my hole if it makes you feel better about your chip.
Mike O.
I base my entire argument not on hypothesis, but upon the real world experience of the BMW racing community. The E30M3 group, specifically, has proven this theory over and over with engine and chassis dynos on everything from stock 2.3 rebuilds to radical 2.5 EVO setups...every one of them has proven the point that driveline loss is a constant...measured in ft/lbs. Obviously the hp losses are higher for engines turning over 8000rpm but the ft/lbs are constant.
It's convenient for tuners to use the % loss as a way to bolster hp figures. Just think, the difference between 20% and 25% on 190whp is a whopping 15.8hp. 15.8hp will sell a lot of chips to this community. Interestingly, nobody here cares where the power is, or how it comes on, or what the peak torque is....it's all about peak hp.
What I am waiting for is APR, GIAC & PES to pull a stock engine, stick it on an engine dyno and then stick it back in the car to chassis dyno it. Then they can do the same with their chipped engine and the Stage 3 or PES T-28. My point will be proven out. Unfortunately, you guys don't care enough to ask for this so we'll just keep using the % method as it makes everyone feel better.
I apologize for trying to enlighten the community. I will go back into my hole if it makes you feel better about your chip.
Mike O.
01-01-2003, 08:40 AM
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Well I guess you better go ask all the companies that
make the 1/4 mile calcs because it makes no since that my car was making 250 at the wheels and you say I was making 281 hp at the crank but yet I had no problem spanking the **** out of a car making 360 hp and I mean PULLING away in 4th gear.
You would also have to then make all the car manufacturs change their hp/tq ratings for all new cars since they can not be correct by your figures.
But the point was your the one saying it is only 33 hp all the time so go out and show us some real facts by pulling your motor and doing the tests other wise everyone is still going to use a %. Funny thing is my friend builds V8 motors to a spec hp rating for a very large piston company. They test it on a engine dyno and on a standard dyno and still use a % drive line loss. I guess 99% of the world must be wrong and 1% must be right.
So I guess it must be magic that can make a car that got a 20 hp gain to shave off 1 full second in the 1/4 mile.
You would also have to then make all the car manufacturs change their hp/tq ratings for all new cars since they can not be correct by your figures.
But the point was your the one saying it is only 33 hp all the time so go out and show us some real facts by pulling your motor and doing the tests other wise everyone is still going to use a %. Funny thing is my friend builds V8 motors to a spec hp rating for a very large piston company. They test it on a engine dyno and on a standard dyno and still use a % drive line loss. I guess 99% of the world must be wrong and 1% must be right.
So I guess it must be magic that can make a car that got a 20 hp gain to shave off 1 full second in the 1/4 mile.
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01-01-2003, 09:27 AM
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keep it simple and dont confuse yourself. last time i checked youre active in the show car community
we all know how you ladies talk 
. say, do you have a timeslip from your new setup?
btw check yipper's link below, search the word 'happy' - however you misuse the dyno it will still be helpful in getting peak performance for tuning, no need for real numbers
. say, do you have a timeslip from your new setup?btw check yipper's link below, search the word 'happy' - however you misuse the dyno it will still be helpful in getting peak performance for tuning, no need for real numbers
01-01-2003, 10:45 AM
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Dynos and tuning...
...WYSIWYG makes a most interesting point here. Chassis dynos are useful for tuning...that's about it. It's use tells the tuner/programmer where in the RPM curve the mix is fat/thin, what the limit of timing advance is for a specific rpm under full load and how tables must be modified for various fuels (91/93/84/100/104/110). It is not useful in determining what the actual flywheel horsepower is.
I would even dispute the value of he WHP figure as it is difficult to replicate the amount of air flowing across/through the intercooler so the air charge is going to be higher than would be experienced on the road (or in a controlled environment like an engine dyno would provide).
Let's all face it...chassis dynos are marketed by the chassis dyno manufacturers as a way to tune without removing the engine. Chassis dynos are marketed by tuning shops as a way to derive flywheel horsepower. Think about how much of a marketing gimmick this is before you part with your hard earned dollars!
I have never had my car dyno'd and I've been tinkering with my car for five years and 177,000 miles. In the DE events I instruct with, I can pass everything short of a full race Porsche 911...so who cares what the number is!
Thanks WYSIWYG,
Mike O.
I would even dispute the value of he WHP figure as it is difficult to replicate the amount of air flowing across/through the intercooler so the air charge is going to be higher than would be experienced on the road (or in a controlled environment like an engine dyno would provide).
Let's all face it...chassis dynos are marketed by the chassis dyno manufacturers as a way to tune without removing the engine. Chassis dynos are marketed by tuning shops as a way to derive flywheel horsepower. Think about how much of a marketing gimmick this is before you part with your hard earned dollars!
I have never had my car dyno'd and I've been tinkering with my car for five years and 177,000 miles. In the DE events I instruct with, I can pass everything short of a full race Porsche 911...so who cares what the number is!
Thanks WYSIWYG,
Mike O.