AWE Stage 2 clutch and LWFW initial impressions -- totally honest, substantially positive
05-26-2004, 08:15 PM
#1
AWE Stage 2 clutch and LWFW initial impressions -- totally honest, substantially positive
Hey guys, first things first: thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience. I didn't know anything about clutches when my stocker started to slip, and you guys got me heading the right direction. Special thanks to Ray for the advice and test-drive!
I'm still in break-in (360 miles on it so far,) so all these impressions could change, but I love it so far. My gas mileage is down 2mpg because I'm having so much fun :-)
The car: 2000 Audi A4 1.8TQM, GIAC P09L software, APR exhaust. I guess that it's maybe 210-215 HP. GIAC quotes 197 HP, and the APR exhaust makes a noticeable difference, so I'm guessing it adds 10-20 hp.
The clutch: AWE stage 2 with 12 pound lightweight flywheel. This appears to be the exact same thing as the Southbend DXD clutch; it's a sprung 6-puck setup. The flywheel looks like an Unorthodox Racing unit, but unlike the clutch itself, it wasn't labelled.
Impressions:
** Pedal effort is close enough to stock that you could tell me it's more than stock, and I'd believe you, or you could tell me it's less than stock, and I'd also believe you. It's the same.
** Engagement point is slightly lower than stock. Can't be much lower, I didn't even notice the difference for a while. Maybe a half inch??? Just to be clear though, this **is** an improvement. The stock engagement point is too high for my taste.
** LWFW -- car is faster. Acceleration is better. I'm certain of it. Don't try to tell me differently. You want numbers?? I don't got 'em, **** off, my car is faster :-p
** LWFW -- drivability. Net net, the drivability of the car is **IMPROVED** due to the LWFW. This is counter to conventional wisdom, so I'll explain myself in excruciating detail :-)
On the negative side, it takes a little more concentration to pull away smoothly **and** slowly from a stop. Creeping away in stop-and-go traffic is dead easy, the same as stock -- let it out, don't worry about the gas...easy. Quicker than that, but still in a civilized manner, just takes a little more concentration than stock. It was second nature almost immediately, and I never worried about it, except for the very first "launch", pulling out of the mechanic's driveway into rush-hour traffic.
On the positive side, the engine is much more responsive. Rev matching on downshifts is much easier (duh...) Less obviously, overall responsiveness is improved. The 2000 A4 was the first with an electronic throttle, which I hate, and whose effect is a noticeable throttle lag. The LWFW seems to reduce this lag. Ok ok, I'm sure it has no effect on the throttle, but because the motor spins up faster, the lag I perceive is reduced, and the drivability is improved IMO.
Closely related to the last point, I feel that quick launches are improved. I have always been a master of the "quattro bog" launch. This pretty much still defines how I launch my quattro, but the LWFW lets me recover quicker from the bog, so it's better :-)
I'm still in break-in, so I haven't tried a *hard* launch yet. I haven't noticed any slipping on launches, but I'm not pushing it.
** Clutch chatter. I'm still not sure of the definition of this, but sometimes when the car is stopped in neutral and the clutch pedal is out and the a/c is on, the car makes noise like a diesel, or like hydraulic lifter noise (only louder.) I can't hear it from inside the car unless the window or door is open, and it goes away when I push the clutch pedal. Is this clutch chatter? Should I worry about it? Oddly enough, it doesn't bother me..
** There's another weird noise. Under high load, at low RPM's (in too high a gear, basically,) the drivetrain makes a noise that sounds a lot like the turbo WHOOOSH, only louder. Why does it do this? Is it bad?? Maybe the clutch is slipping? Did I mention I'm still in break-in?
** AWE was outstanding in getting this stuff to me exactly when they said they would. So kudos for trustworthiness. The flywheel bolts were missing from the kit, and they had them overnighted to me directly from their supplier. So kudos for service. I think I worked with Seth @ AWE this time, and he did a great job answering my last questions and helping me with the order.
Conclusions:
The car is faster.
The car is more driveable.
When I decided to do the LWFW with the clutch, I assumed that I would have no hope of selling the car on the used market because of it, but after driving it I don't feel I would even have anything to explain to a potential buyer.
So far, my expectations are exceeded.
I'm still in break-in (360 miles on it so far,) so all these impressions could change, but I love it so far. My gas mileage is down 2mpg because I'm having so much fun :-)
The car: 2000 Audi A4 1.8TQM, GIAC P09L software, APR exhaust. I guess that it's maybe 210-215 HP. GIAC quotes 197 HP, and the APR exhaust makes a noticeable difference, so I'm guessing it adds 10-20 hp.
The clutch: AWE stage 2 with 12 pound lightweight flywheel. This appears to be the exact same thing as the Southbend DXD clutch; it's a sprung 6-puck setup. The flywheel looks like an Unorthodox Racing unit, but unlike the clutch itself, it wasn't labelled.
Impressions:
** Pedal effort is close enough to stock that you could tell me it's more than stock, and I'd believe you, or you could tell me it's less than stock, and I'd also believe you. It's the same.
** Engagement point is slightly lower than stock. Can't be much lower, I didn't even notice the difference for a while. Maybe a half inch??? Just to be clear though, this **is** an improvement. The stock engagement point is too high for my taste.
** LWFW -- car is faster. Acceleration is better. I'm certain of it. Don't try to tell me differently. You want numbers?? I don't got 'em, **** off, my car is faster :-p
** LWFW -- drivability. Net net, the drivability of the car is **IMPROVED** due to the LWFW. This is counter to conventional wisdom, so I'll explain myself in excruciating detail :-)
On the negative side, it takes a little more concentration to pull away smoothly **and** slowly from a stop. Creeping away in stop-and-go traffic is dead easy, the same as stock -- let it out, don't worry about the gas...easy. Quicker than that, but still in a civilized manner, just takes a little more concentration than stock. It was second nature almost immediately, and I never worried about it, except for the very first "launch", pulling out of the mechanic's driveway into rush-hour traffic.
On the positive side, the engine is much more responsive. Rev matching on downshifts is much easier (duh...) Less obviously, overall responsiveness is improved. The 2000 A4 was the first with an electronic throttle, which I hate, and whose effect is a noticeable throttle lag. The LWFW seems to reduce this lag. Ok ok, I'm sure it has no effect on the throttle, but because the motor spins up faster, the lag I perceive is reduced, and the drivability is improved IMO.
Closely related to the last point, I feel that quick launches are improved. I have always been a master of the "quattro bog" launch. This pretty much still defines how I launch my quattro, but the LWFW lets me recover quicker from the bog, so it's better :-)
I'm still in break-in, so I haven't tried a *hard* launch yet. I haven't noticed any slipping on launches, but I'm not pushing it.
** Clutch chatter. I'm still not sure of the definition of this, but sometimes when the car is stopped in neutral and the clutch pedal is out and the a/c is on, the car makes noise like a diesel, or like hydraulic lifter noise (only louder.) I can't hear it from inside the car unless the window or door is open, and it goes away when I push the clutch pedal. Is this clutch chatter? Should I worry about it? Oddly enough, it doesn't bother me..
** There's another weird noise. Under high load, at low RPM's (in too high a gear, basically,) the drivetrain makes a noise that sounds a lot like the turbo WHOOOSH, only louder. Why does it do this? Is it bad?? Maybe the clutch is slipping? Did I mention I'm still in break-in?
** AWE was outstanding in getting this stuff to me exactly when they said they would. So kudos for trustworthiness. The flywheel bolts were missing from the kit, and they had them overnighted to me directly from their supplier. So kudos for service. I think I worked with Seth @ AWE this time, and he did a great job answering my last questions and helping me with the order.
Conclusions:
The car is faster.
The car is more driveable.
When I decided to do the LWFW with the clutch, I assumed that I would have no hope of selling the car on the used market because of it, but after driving it I don't feel I would even have anything to explain to a potential buyer.
So far, my expectations are exceeded.
05-26-2004, 08:24 PM
#3
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you really feel like drivability is the same??
my car is stock and I need a new clutch flywheel. I plan to get a stage 2 clutch but was tossing around the idea of LWFW or not. A lot of people say they make the car more fun to drive...which would be nice, but I would also like to be able to sell it later on. I just cant tell if it would be worth it
05-27-2004, 05:24 AM
#4
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Doug - I recently installed a South Bend DXD and LWFW and have the EXACT same impressions...
Here are some pics of my old WOA clutch - stock FW setup and the new one...
<img src="http://users.rcn.com/raudi77/Raudi77/DXD%20vs%20Hybrid%20WOA%20Stage%202-3.jpg">
<img src="http://users.rcn.com/raudi77/Raudi77/Stock%20vs%20Unorthodox%20Flywheel.jpg">
My impressions:
I like the LWFW's increased responsiveness as well.
The WHOOSH sound is really annoying. The only thing I could think of was that we left a loose heat shield during install or something. Guess not. :-/
Chatter is definitely there when the A/C is on or any other big current draw (opening all 4 windows at once). It's annoying too.
I don't like the engagement point being right at the top, especially since Eddie told me it would be at the bottom.
The pedal's a bit light, but I'm getting used to it, and it seems to be stiffening up since I put it in.
So far, it's not holding on launches. It's for 1250 miles on it. That's not cool.
Final judgment: Wish I could have gotten another WOA clutch like my last one. =/
<img src="http://users.rcn.com/raudi77/Raudi77/DXD%20vs%20Hybrid%20WOA%20Stage%202-3.jpg">
<img src="http://users.rcn.com/raudi77/Raudi77/Stock%20vs%20Unorthodox%20Flywheel.jpg">
My impressions:
I like the LWFW's increased responsiveness as well.
The WHOOSH sound is really annoying. The only thing I could think of was that we left a loose heat shield during install or something. Guess not. :-/
Chatter is definitely there when the A/C is on or any other big current draw (opening all 4 windows at once). It's annoying too.
I don't like the engagement point being right at the top, especially since Eddie told me it would be at the bottom.
The pedal's a bit light, but I'm getting used to it, and it seems to be stiffening up since I put it in.
So far, it's not holding on launches. It's for 1250 miles on it. That's not cool.
Final judgment: Wish I could have gotten another WOA clutch like my last one. =/
05-27-2004, 07:31 AM
#7
No, drivability is definitely different, but overall I feel it's an improvement...
It's worse in some areas, better in others, and for my tastes and driving style it's an improvement in the end!
The resale point is a tough one. That's a decision you'll have to arrive at yourself. I had the exact same concern, and undertook this upgrade fully aware (and ok with it) that it might make it impossible to resell the car. The result is much better than I expected in general drivability though, so I think a resale to Joe-average-driver would still be possible.
There's nothing wrong with pairing the stage2 clutch with a stock flywheel in my opinion. You'll get better holding, and it's hard for me to imagine any drivability issues at all. Though take that with a grain of salt, because I haven't driven this clutch with a stock flywheel.
HTH
The resale point is a tough one. That's a decision you'll have to arrive at yourself. I had the exact same concern, and undertook this upgrade fully aware (and ok with it) that it might make it impossible to resell the car. The result is much better than I expected in general drivability though, so I think a resale to Joe-average-driver would still be possible.
There's nothing wrong with pairing the stage2 clutch with a stock flywheel in my opinion. You'll get better holding, and it's hard for me to imagine any drivability issues at all. Though take that with a grain of salt, because I haven't driven this clutch with a stock flywheel.
HTH
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05-27-2004, 07:41 AM
#8
Very interesting...
It sounds like we're having different reactions to some of the same characteristics. I'd say the whoosh sound is annoying, rather than "really annoying". I was worried I had an install problem too, but apparently not. Maybe it'll go away after break-in (as well as holding on launches?) The chatter definitely doesn't bother me. I think as long as I know where a noise is coming from and that it's not harmful, I'll put up with a lot. Plus I can't hear it with the windows up..
I agree that the pedal is light, and perhaps stiffening up a touch as I go. I like it - no more effort than stock. My engagement point is definitely lower than with the stock clutch though. I wonder why yours is at the top? Different clutch setup between the '00 and '99.5??
I really do hope that your clutch starts to hold on launches Mark, it seems like right now you're getting all the negatives, and not getting the one big positive you need -- a clutch that holds! Presumably mine isn't holding yet either, though I'm not planning on torturing it for a few hundred more miles..
Thanks for posting your impressions too. Always nice to know I'm not *completely* insane ;-)
I agree that the pedal is light, and perhaps stiffening up a touch as I go. I like it - no more effort than stock. My engagement point is definitely lower than with the stock clutch though. I wonder why yours is at the top? Different clutch setup between the '00 and '99.5??
I really do hope that your clutch starts to hold on launches Mark, it seems like right now you're getting all the negatives, and not getting the one big positive you need -- a clutch that holds! Presumably mine isn't holding yet either, though I'm not planning on torturing it for a few hundred more miles..
Thanks for posting your impressions too. Always nice to know I'm not *completely* insane ;-)
05-27-2004, 07:49 AM
#9
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I got a custom dual friction from south bend.....
<center><img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/49455/108_0811.jpg"></center><p>I'm running a GT28RS and it was slipping badly up top. Each time it started slipping I gave it a 3 or 4 days and the tried it again. I think the key for mine was getting the Kevlar hot several times. Now it is very solid no slipping at all. About 2000 miles I guess. Don't worry it will hold soon...
