Best Audi motor for tuning. OPPINIONS NEEDED
08-17-2003, 08:38 AM
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Best Audi motor for tuning. OPPINIONS NEEDED
Let's say that I am looking to create a monster, the engine bay and the subframe are to be readjusted for accomodating one of these engines:
1. the 1.8T 20v
2. the 2.2T 5cyl 20v
3. the 2.7Bi turbo 30v V6
4. the 4.2 V8 40v
It looks to me that alot of power can be squeezed out of any of these engines. For the 1.8 and 2.7 there are a lot ob bolt on upgrades, the 5 cyl is tried and tested(loock at Dahlback Racing), and the V8 is an out of the box performer especially in a lighter car and just imagine twin turboing it....
So please post your pros and cons for the options above and oppinions. CHEERS
1. the 1.8T 20v
2. the 2.2T 5cyl 20v
3. the 2.7Bi turbo 30v V6
4. the 4.2 V8 40v
It looks to me that alot of power can be squeezed out of any of these engines. For the 1.8 and 2.7 there are a lot ob bolt on upgrades, the 5 cyl is tried and tested(loock at Dahlback Racing), and the V8 is an out of the box performer especially in a lighter car and just imagine twin turboing it....
So please post your pros and cons for the options above and oppinions. CHEERS
08-17-2003, 02:12 PM
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depends on how much torque you want and where you want & it...
the larger displacement engines will offer more torque earlier in the rev range.
This is desirable for most people because it alows the car to feel very streetable. And it very helpfull on the tack durring turn exits.
The 5 valve heads are excelent for VE, so i'd take the 5cly 20v off the list and look at the other 3.
It also largley depends on your budget.
aaron/sw20T
This is desirable for most people because it alows the car to feel very streetable. And it very helpfull on the tack durring turn exits.
The 5 valve heads are excelent for VE, so i'd take the 5cly 20v off the list and look at the other 3.
It also largley depends on your budget.
aaron/sw20T
08-17-2003, 05:42 PM
#3
Re: depends on how much torque you want and where you want & it...
Why take the 20v off the list? VAG is going back to 16v heads on the new FSI and TDI 2L engines. Benz only uses 3v/cyl with very good results.
The 3B and AAN motors are awesome powerplants, ones that have roots all the way back to 1984 with the Sport quattro (KW engine code, 310hp from a 2.1L 20v) and up to 1996 in the RS2 (ADU, 315hp 2.2L 20v). Don't knock the 5cyl motors, ever ;-) Even the 10vt's are great (very cheap, easy to tune up to 250hp, and if you know what you are doing they can make much more than that).
If the new motor is going into a Scirocco, forget the 5cyl and V8 however. Both are too big for that engine bay (too long, too wide, respectively). Heck, the 30vtt may be too (what transmission is going to be used, and is it going to be a North/South or East/West orientation?). I'd actually opt for the 1.8t with a good turbo to reduce lag (the 225hp TTq has more lag than the old '86-88 5ktq).
The 3B and AAN motors are awesome powerplants, ones that have roots all the way back to 1984 with the Sport quattro (KW engine code, 310hp from a 2.1L 20v) and up to 1996 in the RS2 (ADU, 315hp 2.2L 20v). Don't knock the 5cyl motors, ever ;-) Even the 10vt's are great (very cheap, easy to tune up to 250hp, and if you know what you are doing they can make much more than that).
If the new motor is going into a Scirocco, forget the 5cyl and V8 however. Both are too big for that engine bay (too long, too wide, respectively). Heck, the 30vtt may be too (what transmission is going to be used, and is it going to be a North/South or East/West orientation?). I'd actually opt for the 1.8t with a good turbo to reduce lag (the 225hp TTq has more lag than the old '86-88 5ktq).
08-18-2003, 05:10 AM
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Re: re...
Not knocking the 5 cylinders, I have a 90 20vq. It is great for putting around town in
What I was getting at is, if he plans to modify the engine the largest restriction in an engine is its valve area. By increasing the valve area (or in this case the number of valves) you dramatically alter the engines VE. The better the VE the better the engine can perform.
Hell Chevy is still making great power out of 2 valve push rod engines. Does that mean they are pushing the cutting edge, I think not.
The 5 valve per cylinder heads are in-fact a better design that the old 2 valve or 3 valve or even 4 valve heads.
I am not sure what he plans to do with the engine but I have learned that if you don't go with the new stuff you find your self being left behind.
Kinda like Chevy with its 2 valve push rod engines. Yea they work but power per liter is down to the newer hi po head designs.
With the proper knowledge and a healthy budget you can make anything fast. I say why not start with the best design you can afford.
regards
aaron/sw20T
What I was getting at is, if he plans to modify the engine the largest restriction in an engine is its valve area. By increasing the valve area (or in this case the number of valves) you dramatically alter the engines VE. The better the VE the better the engine can perform.
Hell Chevy is still making great power out of 2 valve push rod engines. Does that mean they are pushing the cutting edge, I think not.
The 5 valve per cylinder heads are in-fact a better design that the old 2 valve or 3 valve or even 4 valve heads.
I am not sure what he plans to do with the engine but I have learned that if you don't go with the new stuff you find your self being left behind.
Kinda like Chevy with its 2 valve push rod engines. Yea they work but power per liter is down to the newer hi po head designs.
With the proper knowledge and a healthy budget you can make anything fast. I say why not start with the best design you can afford.
regards
aaron/sw20T
08-18-2003, 08:26 AM
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Re: depends on how much torque you want and where you want & it...
Ok guys, let's add some salt and pepper: the engine will most likely go into a 4000Q but i'm also considering a 90Q or a '91CoupeQ.
I like the 20v 5 cyl engines and it would be a direct swap. Moneywise the 4/5 cyl would be the cheapest and most available.
I like the 20v 5 cyl engines and it would be a direct swap. Moneywise the 4/5 cyl would be the cheapest and most available.
08-18-2003, 08:47 AM
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You can find a 3b or aan for cheap and swap it over for not too much money
turbo uprades are plentiful and you're not blocked by Motronic as much as you would be with a 1.8 or 2.7.
You can get 400 reliable HP without too much of a budget if you're smart about it.<ul><li><a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/9080/msgs/112561.phtml">click me</a></li></ul>
You can get 400 reliable HP without too much of a budget if you're smart about it.<ul><li><a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/9080/msgs/112561.phtml">click me</a></li></ul>
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08-18-2003, 12:22 PM
#8
Re: depends on how much torque you want and where you want & it...
Stick with a 5cyl motor, WAAAAY less headaches.
The 1.8t requires new motor mounts and/or subframe. Ditto for the V6 and V8 motors. The V8 motors BARELY fit in the engine bay, and require moving key components (radiator, brake MC/booster).
Your absolutely cheapest route is the 10vt (which is what I am doing with my '90 CQ). Quick and dirty upgrades to 250hp, and you can get it to 300hp with some work. Switch to EFI and run to 400hp.
The 3B is pretty easy, and the AAN requires some ABY or ADU bits to fit in the B-series engine bay.
The great thing about putting a 10vt or 20vt into a B-series chassis is that it can be done with 100% factory parts if you want. You cannot do so with the 1.8t, 30vtt, or 32/40v motors.
Personally, I'd say if you are up to id, do a V8 if you can. Otherwise, go for whatever 5cyl turbo fits your budget. A 10vt swap into any B-series can be done for under $3k including a TOTAL engine rebuild (factory parts), purchasing a motor, and doing some things to it (FMIC and chip/wastegate can be done if you look around). The 20vt motors require 2-4k to buy a motor, plus several thousand more to get the needed manifolds, airbox, and other bits to fit them. I'd venture a guess that the minimum entry price of a 20vt swap is $8k if you DIY (which is what Ben K. is doing, see the link in "Benz's" post).
The 1.8t requires new motor mounts and/or subframe. Ditto for the V6 and V8 motors. The V8 motors BARELY fit in the engine bay, and require moving key components (radiator, brake MC/booster).
Your absolutely cheapest route is the 10vt (which is what I am doing with my '90 CQ). Quick and dirty upgrades to 250hp, and you can get it to 300hp with some work. Switch to EFI and run to 400hp.
The 3B is pretty easy, and the AAN requires some ABY or ADU bits to fit in the B-series engine bay.
The great thing about putting a 10vt or 20vt into a B-series chassis is that it can be done with 100% factory parts if you want. You cannot do so with the 1.8t, 30vtt, or 32/40v motors.
Personally, I'd say if you are up to id, do a V8 if you can. Otherwise, go for whatever 5cyl turbo fits your budget. A 10vt swap into any B-series can be done for under $3k including a TOTAL engine rebuild (factory parts), purchasing a motor, and doing some things to it (FMIC and chip/wastegate can be done if you look around). The 20vt motors require 2-4k to buy a motor, plus several thousand more to get the needed manifolds, airbox, and other bits to fit them. I'd venture a guess that the minimum entry price of a 20vt swap is $8k if you DIY (which is what Ben K. is doing, see the link in "Benz's" post).
08-18-2003, 12:32 PM
#9
Re: re...
I'll bet if you compare the valve area of a 4v VAG head to a 5v VAG head, they are pretty close (I'll gladly calc the I and E valve area of one of my 20v heads if you have the #'s for a 1.8t or 30v head). Anyway, FI motors don't "care" as much about valve area as normally aspirated versions do from what I have seen. I have a few friends with stroked and blown small blocks that will easily show up any HP and torque numbers of anything on here. Hell, how about an LS1/LS6 making nearly 500rwhp? I'd spend more time worrying about port geometry and flow than valve area. You can always put larger valves in a 2v head with little fuss, which is tough to do in a 4v or especially a 5v head. Very crowded in either of those...
Also, the "old engines" like the MC and 3B/AAN motors still have a strong aftermarket support, just not as abundant or vocal. The 7A has NEVER had a good aftermarket support, lots of DIY to get that thing to make 200+ hp, along with lots of expense. Looked into that, and after tallying over $7k in parts (and still going) to build a 250-300hp capable 7A based power plant, I opted for the 10vt. Cheaper in every aspect, and still lots of room to grow with that engine.
Also, the "old engines" like the MC and 3B/AAN motors still have a strong aftermarket support, just not as abundant or vocal. The 7A has NEVER had a good aftermarket support, lots of DIY to get that thing to make 200+ hp, along with lots of expense. Looked into that, and after tallying over $7k in parts (and still going) to build a 250-300hp capable 7A based power plant, I opted for the 10vt. Cheaper in every aspect, and still lots of room to grow with that engine.
08-18-2003, 05:59 PM
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You can RS4+ a 2.7tt, but 2.2T I-5 is the fastest by far--9.x sec. 1/4 mile in an UrQ, IIRC
While there is no replacement for displacement, displacement means weight.
1.8t = light weight/low displacement end of spectrum; V-8 = heavy weight/high displacement end of spectrum.
After much trial and error in my life, I have learned to follow my father's advice, go the golden middle way--2.2t or 2.7tt.
1.8t = light weight/low displacement end of spectrum; V-8 = heavy weight/high displacement end of spectrum.
After much trial and error in my life, I have learned to follow my father's advice, go the golden middle way--2.2t or 2.7tt.